📊Poll: Do Balrogs have wings?

[Radaghast]

If there's one thing Tolkien was ultra-fond of, it was ambiguity; he left sooo many things open to interpretation.

I come down on the "wings" side, for reasons I've given previously, but I guess it amounts to something like a Rorschach test for each reader.
View attachment 38294

Looks kind of like a butterfly, which reminds me of Ralph Bakshi's goofy depiction.

Oh, btw...

 

[TrackerOrc]

Presumably, if Balrogs could fly, they wouldn't be dying by falling off things/into things all the time.

Balrog in Moria: fell into the chasm when Gandalf broke the bridge of Khazad-dûm, and caught Gandalf with its flaming whip so he fell down also.

Glorfindel and the Balrog: they fought on a pinnacle of rock, as the Balrog (leading a band of Orcs) attacked those trying to escape the destruction of Gondolin. The Balrog fell backwards, grabbing Glorfindel's hair as it went, and both died falling into the abyss below.

Both Ecthelion and Gothmog (lord of Balrogs) fell into the Fountain of the King and drowned, both heavily wounded. This wasn't a fall from a great height, but I'm mentioning it anyway.

Well creatures that can fly aren't always flying.

As more and more someone who sticks strictly to the canon, I can only speak about the Moria Balrog, and the fact that he fell into the chasm doesn't necessarily mean that he can't actually fly.

The Balrog basically means to chop Gandalf into kebab sized pieces and is then blindsided by Gandalf using his staff - 'A blinding sheet of white flame sprang up' (perhaps the Flame of Arnor?); once he falls into the abyss he manages to drag Gandalf in with him. From then on the two are basically fighting hand to hand, entwined with each other, so the Balrog can't use his wings.

This is,of course, speculation, but there is another statement by Tolkien which proves beyond doubt that the Moria Balrog does indeed have wings and can indeed fly:

'The Dwarves delved deep at that time...thus they roused from sleep a thing of terror that, flying from Thangorodrim, had lain hidden at the foundations of the earth...a Balrog of Morgoth'. (Appendix A Durin's Folk)

Open and shut case I reckon.

 

[Erestor Arcamen]

Well creatures that can fly aren't always flying.

As more and more someone who sticks strictly to the canon, I can only speak about the Moria Balrog, and the fact that he fell into the chasm doesn't necessarily mean that he can't actually fly.

The Balrog basically means to chop Gandalf into kebab sized pieces and is then blindsided by Gandalf using his staff - 'A blinding sheet of white flame sprang up' (perhaps the Flame of Arnor?); once he falls into the abyss he manages to drag Gandalf in with him. From then on the two are basically fighting hand to hand, entwined with each other, so the Balrog can't use his wings.

This is,of course, speculation, but there is another statement by Tolkien which proves beyond doubt that the Moria Balrog does indeed have wings and can indeed fly:

'The Dwarves delved deep at that time...thus they roused from sleep a thing of terror that, flying from Thangorodrim, had lain hidden at the foundations of the earth...a Balrog of Morgoth'. (Appendix A Durin's Folk)

Open and shut case I reckon.

Flying doesn’t just literally mean “flying” it can also be meant for rapidly departing. It’s the same as what elthir said about wings, doesn’t literally mean wings every time.

Example: when they heard the approaching sirens, the bank robbers flew out the door.

Post in thread 'Poll: Do Balrogs have wings?'
https://thetolkien.forum/threads/poll-do-balrogs-have-wings.230/post-620891

 

[Elthir]

This is, of course, speculation, but there is another statement by Tolkien which proves beyond doubt that the Moria Balrog does indeed have wings and can indeed fly:

Hmm, do you think the "like wings" to "wings" construction proves the case beyond doubt?

I'd say this is simply a construction writers (including Tolkien, as demonstrated) are free to employ, and obviously not necessarily only with the word wings! I doubt anyone reading Tolkien's Tal-Elmar would think that the Sea-men themselves actually sprouted wings, as "sails" is the obvious meaning, given the original simile.

Again, this doesn't prove the Moria Balrog case either way, but that's the point at this point

'The Dwarves delved deep at that time...thus they roused from sleep a thing of terror that, flying from Thangorodrim, had lain hidden at the foundations of the earth...a Balrog of Morgoth'. (Appendix A Durin's Folk) Open and shut case I reckon.

"For he saw that all his host in the valley was in a rout, and the Dwarves went this way and that slaying as they would, and those that could escape from them were flying south, shrieking as they ran." Appendix A, Durin's folk

🐾

 

[Squint-eyed Southerner]

I don't see a problem, really. 😄

 

[Erestor Arcamen]

flying south, shrieking as they ran.

They were obviously running in the air

 

[Elthir]

By the way, as I once posted in the other thread (recently raised by me) about the Balrog's "wings":

"Suddenly a shadow, like the shape of great wings, passed across the moon. The figure lifted his arms and a light flashed from the staff that he wielded. A mighty eagle swept down and bore him away." JRRT In the House of Tom Bombadil

Here's a shadow "like" the shape of great wings, and it turns out to be. . . an eagle!

Eagles have wings, generally speaking

And so it [the debate] continues. . . oh and I forgot to say: huzzah for 50 pages!

 

[Radaghast]

And so it [the debate] continues. . . oh and I forgot to say: huzzah for 50 pages!

It will, though it really shouldn't. But maybe you can get to 100 pages? 🤔

 

[Erestor Arcamen]

So did balrog's wings (if they have them) have flaming feathers, scales, or charcoal

 

[Radaghast]

So did balrog's wings (if they have them) have flaming feathers, scales, or charcoal

Or maybe...

 

[Radaghast]

If you want a cat or catlike creature with wings look no further than Toothless the Night Fury.

(Just trying to help get this thread to 50...)

Apropos of nothing (but, hey, we want 100 pages right?), but I posted this without knowing that there's going to be a live action remake of How to Train Your Dragon, a movie that's a mere 14 years old, and from the trailer it looks to be a shot-for-shot remake.

If there's ever a live action remake of The Iron Giant I think I will die inside (assuming I'm not already dead inside).

The Most Unnecessary Fantasy Remake Is Learning the Worst Lesson from Disney

Universal's 'How to Train Your Dragon' remake is determined to be a faithful adaptation, even if that makes it pointless.

www.inverse.com

 

[Erestor Arcamen]

Or maybe...

So you're saying Balrogs bring Pepsi and Ring Dings to parties? I'm in

 

[Elthir]

And chocolate babka. . . if you can get it. There's also cinnamon babka, although Elaine considers this a "lesser babka".

Her words, not mine

 

[Radaghast]

So you're saying Balrogs bring Pepsi and Ring Dings to parties? I'm in

Yeah, otherwise they cannot pass.

So you're saying Balrogs bring Pepsi and Ring Dings to parties? I'm in

 

[Squint-eyed Southerner]

The Pepsi part's taken care of, at least.

 

[Erestor Arcamen]

The Pepsi part's taken care of, at least.

Ring Dings too apparently!

And it’s a real book 😳

Amazon.com

 

[Radaghast]

Ring Dings too apparently!
View attachment 38321

And it’s a real book 😳

Amazon.com

One brand to conglomerate them all.

 

[TrackerOrc]

Hmm, do you think the "like wings" to "wings" construction proves the case beyond doubt?

I'd say this is simply a construction writers (including Tolkien, as demonstrated) are free to employ, and obviously not necessarily only with the word wings! I doubt anyone reading Tolkien's Tal-Elmar would think that the Sea-men themselves actually sprouted wings, as "sails" is the obvious meaning, given the original simile.

Again, this doesn't prove the Moria Balrog case either way, but that's the point at this point




"For he saw that all his host in the valley was in a rout, and the Dwarves went this way and that slaying as they would, and those that could escape from them were flying south, shrieking as they ran." Appendix A, Durin's folk

🐾

I actually don't think there is a 'like wings' to 'wings' construction or connection at all.

I still think the first statement regarding the shadow cast by the Balrog could be a reference to real wings, but like the conciliatory Orc that I am, I'm happy to go along with the premise that it's a simile.

The second sentence is simply that - an ordinary sentence that tells us the Balrog stood up straight and spread its wings.

Now you are entirely correct that the word 'flying' can mean more than one thing; but why would we not use Occam's Razor (which I've alwayts paraphrased as meaning that the simplest explanation is the correct one) here? Why isn't Tolkien stating the obvious - that the Balrog, using his real (and no doubt astonishingly impressive) wings, flew from Thangorodrim?

Wouldn't this actually make the most sense?

 

[Radaghast]

I propose this be the Balrog-Wings/No Wings Meme Thread.

 

[d4rk3lf]

My newest theory is something like this.

Since Balrogs are Ainurs, they had something like vision on how the future world would look.
And once they decided they will take fully materialistic stature in M.E. they wanted to pick some bad ass animal (like eagle, or pterodactyl), but since their vision was kind of blurry, they picked a chicken.

So yeah, they have a wings, but they are useless as chicken wings... they can flap a bit, fly a few meters, but that's it.

Morgoth, of course had clearer vision, but he didn't wanted to say anything, and laughed within himself, because he knew he will mock them in the future.

I think this idea is worth exploring with AI generated images.