📊Poll: Do Balrogs have wings?

[Halasían]

"Alright This is getting quite silly..."


(Like a balrog with wings)

 

[Radaghast]

All I know is, it's egg grog for Christmas!View attachment 38746

Hey -- looks like we've reached 55 proof! 🤪

'Egg rog' sounds gross, but 'Kraken Black Spiced Rum' sounds enticing!

 

[grendel]

Well, I was going to say that the best thing to have with egg nog is Captain Morgan's Spiced Rum; but Kraken Black Spiced Rum sounds friggin' awesome!

 

[Deimos]

Eggnog makes me gag.... looking at it, thinking about it if someone offers it to me...just gag-me-with-a spoon.

Mulled cider with rum or bourbon or brandy...that is my Yuletide drink.
And I bet there was no eggnog in Middle Earth...well, maybe they drank it in Barad-dûr... it's nasty enough for Sauron and his friends.

Shire folk drank mulled cider... I'm dead certain of it.
Probably popular in Bree and I'm sure Beorn drank it (when he wasn't drinking mead).
Elves probably drank mulled wine for Yule.

 

[Maedhros_Nelyafinwë]

Eggnog makes me gag.... looking at it, thinking about it if someone offers it to me...just gag-me-with-a spoon.

Mulled cider with rum or bourbon or brandy...that is my Yuletide drink.
And I bet there was no eggnog in Middle Earth...well, maybe they drank it in Barad-dûr... it's nasty enough for Sauron and his friends.

Shire folk drank mulled cider... I'm dead certain of it.
Probably popular in Bree and I'm sure Beorn drank it (when he wasn't drinking mead).
Elves probably drank mulled wine for Yule.

I guess my tastes line up with the Elves here because I looooove a mulled wine!

 

[Ent]

Mulled - definition: "think about (a fact, proposal, or request) deeply and at length."

Hum. I suppose if one mulls over a wine for awhile, it may indeed taste better. Personally, I'vw never partaken of a 'mulled wine'. Back in my drinking days, I gave them no thought whatsoever... just sucked 'em down..!

 

[Maedhros_Nelyafinwë]

I would happily mull over a mulled wine because the flavor is so warm and nice!

 

[Radaghast]

Since the word 'mull' has been mentioned and this thread is about wings, here's another gratuitous Wings reference:

 

[Elthir]

By the way, I can't believe I didn't introduce Egrog as the son of Egnog > son of Nogrod > son of Egnor.

I must be slipping.

 

[Squint-eyed Southerner]

Not your fault -- it's hard to get a grip on.

 

[Deimos]

Mulled - definition: "think about (a fact, proposal, or request) deeply and at length."

Hum. I suppose if one mulls over a wine for awhile, it may indeed taste better. Personally, I'vw never partaken of a 'mulled wine'. Back in my drinking days, I gave them no thought whatsoever... just sucked 'em down..!

Maybe you should broaden your etymological references 😉 (not to mention your tastes in drinks) 😄

From the OED: Of wine, beer, etc.: made into a hot drink with added sugar, spices, fruit, etc., and formerly sometimes thickened with beaten egg yolk. Of water or vinegar: (apparently) †sweetened and heated (obsolete). Frequently in mulled wine. Cf. mulsed adj.

 

[Ent]

Maybe you should broaden your etymological references 😉 (not to mention your tastes in drinks) 😄

Nah. Would ruin my (pathetic) joke..!!!

 

[Vardarianna]

Um, going back to the poll question .... NO!

 

[Deimos]

Um, going back to the poll question .... NO!

Well!... a rather unambiguous answer, to be sure....😄

 

[Elthir]

Um, going back to the poll question .... NO!

I say YES!

As it had temporary wings of Unlight.

So. . . No!

As it had temporary wings of Unlight.

__________
"And it is also said," answered Frodo: "Go not to Cats in Coats for counsel, for they will say both no and yes."

 

[Squint-eyed Southerner]

temporary wings of Unlight (Cat).

 

[Matthew Bailey]

As previously described…

Balrogs are Ainur.

The Ainur do not have a “HröaBody” as do all of the Miröanwi of Arda. They have a Fäna/Phänya, which is created by their self-image and how they wish to appear.

This can be augmented by a more powerful and oppressive Indemmar, that augments suggestions of, or ACTUAL , Wings.

Plus, even though the Balrog’s Fäna/Phänya is “Habituated” to a more “Fixed form” it is not completely fixed, but variable still around its principal, fixed-appearance.

So if it wants to have wings… It has them.

And Flight in Arda does not work the same way as it does in our Universe, as the Creatures that fly, which we might balk at seeing fly in our Universe, have MANY attributes and capabilities that affect the ability to “Fly” with Wings we might find insufficient.

This is because the “Indo” (Will) of a being can affect the Physical (Hröaic) Properties of either itself or others. And in the Balrog’s Case… Fäna/Phänya are purely ”Invented” to begin with. So any Hröaic Mass is easily negated.

MB

I say YES!

As it had temporary wings of Unlight.

So. . . No!

As it had temporary wings of Unlight.

__________
"And it is also said," answered Frodo: "Go not to Cats in Coats for counsel, for they will say both no and yes."

See Fäna/Phänya. It’s wings are as tangible, and existential as it wishes, including the ability to fly.

So while the Fäna/Phänya of a Balrog is “Habituated” to a more “Fixed” appearance that appearance is not COMPLETELY FIXED.

Think a Nun’s Habit that has different “accessories” the Nun might wear. Even to having accessories the Nun can pull out of a small bag and swap with an item she is wearing.

The Balrog simply generates Wings via Indo (The means by which the Fänar are made by the Ainur), and when “Done” with them, they vanish back into his “Being.”

MB

 

[Ashley]

View attachment 40291

If Tevildo and Thuringwethil had a child...

 

[Elthir]

See Fäna/Phänya.

For anyone who might be wondering, the concept of self-arraying is explained (in different measures) in various Tolkienian sources. For example (and along with the Elvish word fana), in The Road Goes Ever On, published by JRRT himself in 1967.

Other examples include a number of Tolkien's letters, the texts published in Words, Phrases and Passages (Parma Eldalamberon 17), and the variant presentation for The Nature of Middle-Earth.

Looking at the version used for The Nature of Middle-Earth: in the one place (all in a footnote) where Tolkien refers to the bad guys, he makes a "mistake" (see below).

Yep, Tolkien had it all figured out here folks

From the previously-poked-at footnote we learn the following about the bad guys:

1) Melkor unclad was invisible, and his presence was revealed by a great dread, and a darkness that dimmed or blotted out the light and hues of all things near him.

associated with number two: the Maiar were usually invisible when unclad, but their presence was revealed by their fragrance

2) The corrupted Maiar stank, and for this reason they did not approach those Eldar they wished to deceive or persuade -- except clad in their fanar.

3) These beings could still make to appear beautiful to Elvish eyes, if they wished: "until after the great treachery of Melkor and the destruction of the Trees. After that Melkor (Morgoth) and his servants were perceived as forms of evil and enemies undisguised)"

JRRT, NOME, The Visible Forms Of The Valar And Maiar

With respect to this last part, here in italics, JRRT appears to not consider the fair form of Sauron used in Eregion. Carl Hostetter points this out with a reference to Unfinished Tales, and I'll add that Tolkien also steps on already published description in The Fellowship of the Ring.

Tolkien did not repeat this "mistake" in The Road Goes Ever On, although the published version is shorter in any case

 

[Ent]

All the above said, by all the above people, cannot change Ent's perceiption one whit.
Ent stands on this:
1. There is no canonical text saying Balrogs have wings.
2. There is one canonical text telling us a Balrog was shrouded in shadows like wings.
3. We are told those 'likenesses' later 'spread from wall to wall' or something like that. NOT that real wings spread from wall to wall.

Ent holds to the suspicion what the Text says does not support "real wings" - and all the other contrivances are just that - contrivances speculating into a possibility they COULD have had wings in some way or another.

Now... if I were to spread my billowing coat out from my body "like wings", and later those coat pieces looking "like wings" reached from wall to wall, would I have wings? No, I'd have parts of a billowing coat.

The Balrog had shadows. He didn't and couldn't fly. (he's not like an ostrich or any other winged creature who 'has wings' but can't fly, by the way, so please don't bring up ostriches with me. All Durin's Bane had was shadows looking 'like wings.')

So... we remain with this subject just where we have always remained. There's what the canonical text says, which makes it clear there are shadows "like wings" - the syntax of the language does not allow for any other interpretation - then there are speculations about things written elsewhere. "Maybes" "Possiblys". "Could perhaps in some world or situation unspoken to, perhaps..."

In contrast to the concept they could routinely 'change their form, we also need to lay the fact Sauron could no longer change his form... according to textual evidence. The Balrogs were different, though of lesser power? Again, we speculate greatly.

Ent will shut up now, and forever remain hooked to the text we KNOW, rather than the texts about which we must draw naught but speculations.

Were it not for the very clear text regarding Durin's Bane, it wouldn't even be a question resurfacing every 10 weeks or so... no other text would even raise it to speculate about.


Added note: p.s. - other than the above, Ent has no opinion on the matter whatsoever. 😁