📊Poll: Do Balrogs have wings?

[Thorin]

Originally posted by Telchar


Balrogs where maiar, and maiar could take the shape they wanted, so wouldn't you think that the balrogs looked differently? Or do you belive that all the maiar who followed Melcor took the exact same shape? Since they had the will to decide their shape in the beginning some, probably, chose wings, others may not. So if one have wings, it dosn't mean that al had wings..

That is not necessarily true, Telchar. Considering Tolkien said that there were probably only 7 Balrogs, they were probably all the same...that's why they were all called Balrogs. Taking the shape of a specific "race" would imply the same parameters of those who take it. Look at the Istari, they all had staffs and the same powers, they probably looked quite the same as well. I can't see some of the Maia at the beginning saying, "Hmm, I don't think that I really want to carry around a staff all day. You guys can have one, I want something smaller, like a flute!" Having something like wings seems to me to be an important part of being a Balrog. Now maybe some of them might have had a big ring through their nose and others may not have...

 

[Iluvatar]

Mike:

It says 'like vast wings,' and then alter it says 'its wings.' To me wings are not things that are like wings; they are wings. Given the assumption of Tolkien's precison with words, if balrogs did not have wings then the sentence would read "and its shadows spread from wall to wall." Anyway, that's my thinking.

Thorie:

As I understand it, the Istari were under a constraint to limit the form of their appearance; they were not permitted to overawe the inhabitants of Middle-earth. Saruman does mention the 'staffs of the five wizards,' and we can: a) assume that he knew what he was talking about, and b) presume that he was speaking literally and not figuratively. Perhaps the Istari decided upon staffs as a unifying symbol of their purpose, but if it were discovered that the two Blue Istari had wands and not staffs, that would be cool with me. As for balrogs, my supposition is that when they subjoined their beings to Morgoth to become the Valaraukar they also lost some of their powers of incarnation (similar to Sauron after the fall of Numenor). As such, they would be constrained to the typical form of balrogs, albeit with variations within the form (I doubt that they were all identical). That being said, I'm firmly in the wings camp, and also believe (but not as strongly) that balrogs were capable of flight.

Iluvatar

 

[Greymantle]

Let it be known that I agree with Mike on this long-debated and never-ending issue.

As for shape-changing Maiar, by the time LotR rolled around, I don't believe most of the Maiar actually changed shape, though they had the ability too. I think the Balrogs and the Istari retained their shape pretty much all their time on M-E. Sauron was forced into a single shape, I believe...

 

[El-ahrairah]

Hehe, I seemed to have not ended the debate as I had hoped. No Nobel Prize for me

Perhaps my my use of words was wrong, I take the stance of Iluvatar when he/she says

"of course, a shadow appearing to spread like wings becomes less surprising once you realise that the item casting the shadow *has* wings"

The shadows would be larger, hence you would see them first.

Also I am not taking the stance that ALL Balrogs have wings. I am simply stating you cannot say ALL Balrogs DO NOT have wings.

 

[Gothmog]

Of course I can say that ALL BALROGS DO NOT HAVE WINGS!!! This is MY interpretation of the writings of JRR Tolkien. What I cannot say is that YOUR interpretation is WRONG. Just as you cannot say that MY interpretation is WRONG. There is NO proof either way. However, if you look through the threads there is a link to an article on Balrog wings, if it still works, which you could read and make your choice.

You will find the link on the thread "BALROGS....." by Kraas on the Silmarillion board. It still works.

 

[Rosie Cotton]

I don't picture balrogs as having wings, but it definately seems possible for Tolkien to have intended for at least some balrogs to have them.

 

[Iluvatar]

Um, when I read a statement reading "you can't argue this or you can't argue that" I assume that the statement is made simply for rhetorical effect. If I disagree with the sentiment behind the statement I will indeed argue, but I will de so by advancing my case rationally (or at least as close to rational as I can get). I will definitely refrain from yelling.

 

[Talierin]

This is pretty much my view on Balrog's wings: http://greenbooks.theonering.net/guest/files/080101.html

 

[Lantarion]

Perhaps, at first, the Balrog drew its shadow to such an enormous form that it seemed that two vast shadow-'wings' were stretching out, but then he actually presented real wings, with the possible intention to fly. He could have flown above the Company, and smoked 'em all from above; but perhaps Gandalf's brave stand made him curious, and he decided to tackle the Grey Wanderer first. And although he had 'unfurled' his wings, he couldn't fly out of the abyss as Gandalf was lobbing curses at him and hitting him with his staff. And the 'tunnels' that are briefly described can't be underwater, because they would have crumbled over the years. So the Balrog could have flown up a few feet to the entrance of the caves, and dashed in; while Gandalf, being an Istar, probably just said some great spell and hovered up after the brute.
It is my opinion that all Balrogs CAN have wings, but some, like Gothmog the Lord of Balrogs, didn't seem to think he needed them on the battlefield. This I have gathered from a few paintings I have seen by various artists, and this comment should not be taken as a personal insult to one's personal feelings.

 

[Thorin]

Originally posted by Talierin
This is pretty much my view on Balrog's wings: http://greenbooks.theonering.net/guest/files/080101.html

Great article, Talierin. It made me really question my initial assumption that Balrogs have wings. Because I love the idea and it makes the Balrog scarier, I ignored a lot of the questions that the article brought up. I do have to place my vote on the side of "no wings".

Many people study the Bible the same way. They take one or two passages that support their opinion without looking at numerous others that state otherwise. The only place in Tolkien's works that imply wings is the one at Khazad-dhum. There are many other references that either seemingly contradict it, or do not give it any support. BUT I WANT THEM TO HAVE WINGS!!!!!

 

[Gothmog]

Iluvatar,

If you look at my posting you will see that it is not ALL caps. Certain of the words and phrases have capitalised to emphasise the importance of them. This was done in the same way as El-harairah emphasised certain parts of his posting.


Pontifex,

While I respect your opinion about Balrog Wings, where you say "This I have gathered from a few paintings by various artists" you are in fact relying on the interpretation of someone else. the only place where there is information to use in forming an opinion about this subject is in the writings of JRR Tolkien.


Thorin,

If that is the case, Then GIVE them Wings!!!
After all, they are YOUR Balrogs....

 

[Telchar]

Originally posted by Thorin


That is not necessarily true, Telchar. Considering Tolkien said that there were probably only 7 Balrogs, they were probably all the same...that's why they were all called Balrogs. Taking the shape of a specific "race" would imply the same parameters of those who take it. Look at the Istari, they all had staffs and the same powers, they probably looked quite the same as well

Comparing the Istari and the Balrogs is, well, probably not the ringht two things to compare.. As for the numbers of Balrogs, there are mentioned atlest 7 Balrogs in the stories, but there where probably many more not mentioned, and I would guess many where slain in the war of wrath.

 

[Cian]

Thorin is (likely ) referring to a note revealed in The Annals of Aman specifically regarding Balrog numbers. Cf ~ the phrase 'host of Balrogs' was changed > 'his Balrogs', and:

"'There should not be supposed more than say 3 or at the most 7 ever existed.'"JRRT

 

[Ancalagon]

'Can they fly? That is another question altogether'.

I think you are absolutely spot-on when you ask this question. There is no doubt that they have either a semblance of wings or actual wings. Whether they can actually use them to elevate themselves is the real debate. Why then did the Balrog not glide or fly from the chasm in Moria when he was cast down with Gandalf? Ahhh, the endless options open to scrutiny are what makes Tolkiens work so wonderful.

 

[Lantarion]

Gothmog:
Yes indeed it is another person's interpretation, and I worded my sentences incorrectly. What I meant was that the artists' interpreatations were identical to my own, and that they only back up my opinion of Balrogs having wings. I had 'realized' from the LotR that they have, IMO, great, black wings, and although I did not base my opinion on the paintings of, eg John Howe, they reinforced in a way my belief.

 

[El-ahrairah]

Well I can see that the best way for Peter Jackson to handle this issue would be to only show quick glimpses of the Balrog in Moria: "was that a wing?".

For if he makes a choice and shows the creature outright, those of the opinion that differs will probably not pay to see the next two films, waiting for Morpheus to offer them for free. Hehe, to those people, don't be so superficial!

 

[Cian]

Also, Tolkien penned (an earlier version) of the same scene, Morgoth being saved after his cry ~ to his aid came orcs and Balrogs in that version.

 

[Eomer Dinmention]

i'm guessing that the balrogs didn't becuase if they had wings then when the balrog took gandalf down why didn't the balrog fly back up
but i'm only guessing

 

[Greymantle]

Yup. Same thing when Glorfindel battled a Balrog, they were killed by falling of a cliff. TaLLLLLLLLLLLLL posted a link to a good essay on this subject, somewhere....here it is: http://greenbooks.theonering.net/gu...les/080101.html
I was already convinced Balrogs didn't have wings, but this cemented it.

Edit: Take a wild guess.

Fixed Link --<B>--

 

[Silnarion]

I think that balrogs had wings, but obviously not wings like we know the avian species of our world to have. Tolkien implies that these wings were quasi real, a mixture of shadow and magic...almost fluid, like an umbrous barometer of the balrog's innate power. As to whether or not they enabled flight I wouldnt doubt it, or at least some sort of gliding capability for controlled descent.
Someone in the above thread was wondering if all balrogs looked alike. I dont think they did, but one (poor bastard) should have been able to identify a balrog for what it was, if it was encountered. I would think that there would have been some variety in balrog girth and height, a variety in the amount or color of its personal emolation. The shape and size of its surrounding shadowy essence or wings might have differed depending on its power level. I think that Gothmog would have looked different from the LOTR balrog if compared side to side. I think would have been obvious which balrog was the dominant spirit. You would be comparing a Captain to lower ranking entity.
I cant find my Silmarillion, but I would like to revisit all the descriptions and story line concerning the Balrogs of the First Age. Im sure there are hints and phrases that could help this thread.