Power definition/level in Tolkien's universe

[Kenrou]

Greetings, apologies in advance if I ramble, too many thoughts at once, and I'm not the best at explaining them, and thank you for any replies and help in this

As the title suggests, I'm interested in what Tolkien considers power or magic in this universe, particularly in regard to the Valar (Melkor) and the Maiar (Sauron and the Wizards), I've spoken to many people over the years but never really got a clear definition on this subject, also because Tolkien chose to make some things unclear on purpose. From the lore, we can surmise there's a chasm of difference between the different races, and I know this is a very rough metric, but if it's easier, think for example of Dragonball power levels, Eru (god, infinite), Valar (archangels, 10 million), Maiar (angels 1 million) and so on.

1st, all beings have "power" to a certain degree, correct? Some can use it as is to affect themselves and everything around them, others had to learn to manipulate it and call it magic (if so, how), or is there another simpler way to explain it?

2nd, both Melkor and Sauron lost a lot of their original power by their deeds, Melkor by helping shape Arda and the creation/control of the armies and so forth, so by the end he was written as somewhat lesser than the other Valar, but still much greater than your average Maiar, is this simply because he did not have the time to rest, or because he actually permanently used/transferred he's power to what he did? Sauron is another matter, he seemed to regain all the power he loses by creation/control of armies, creation of the ring where he actually gets more powerful (but how much?). Does he also regain ALL of he's original power from both defeats he suffered where he went incorporeal and had to wait to be reincarnated? Were these two races made differently, or simply used the power in different ways?

3rd, could elves eventually become as powerful as Maiar (or more) given enough time, or would they reach a plateau they simply couldn't surpass by design? Same with humans, could they eventually become as powerful as elves (or more) given enough time, or would they reach a plateau they simply couldn't surpass by design?

4th, is the hobbit's resistance to the one ring considered their own power, or is it just their attitude towards life in general (IE love for life and the simple things instead of power)?

 

[Ent]

I believe both subjects have been covered extensively here on the forum. If you're wanting to probe what others have already said, you could enter "power", "Magic", or both, in the 'search' box at upper right, and click 'search'.

A veritrable world of information would be opened to you for review... some of it no doubt not applicable, but perhaps stimulating nonetheless.

And if haste is not an issue, the Wiki might also be searcned for 'power' and 'magic' as a launch point.

if my sapwood was any good, I'd recall what I've said myself on some occassions in the past with regard to them - especially with regard to our misunderstandings about Tolkien's presentation and intention with them.

That said, a review of the issue as covered in Jeb Smith's book "Middle-earth Lore" is also worthwhile if one should find such resources suitable. His take also differs from the 'norm' among the Tolkien fandom just a bit and is worth the review.

In any event, it's a subject of some significant breadth and depth, so we must not be hasty regarding it.

 

[Ricardo]

I would start with specific manifestations of magic power:

Iluvatar of course created Arda, the Ainur, elves and men, gave life to the dwarves, etc. Not much arguing here.

The Valar manifested their powers in many ways, especially while shaping Arda: Varda creating the stars, Yavanna trees, plants animals and especially the 2 trees of Valinor, Aule shaping most of the geological structures and so on.

No many examples for the Maiar but I can think of the Girdle of Melian, or Gandalf being able to summon fire or light.

Sauron and Morgoth of course showed it multiple times, Sauron changing shape, forging the one ring, Morgoth creating dragons, orcs, trolls, etc.

Elves, their telphatic powers, Finrod changing his and his companion forms, Galadriel shielding Lorien from Sauron's forces, Luthien's multiple tricks when searching for the silmaril, Feanor creating the palantiri or the silmarils, Glorfindel glowing with the light of Valinor.

Men, not many, I can only think of dark magic like the witch king of Angmar before he became a wraith.

Considering the above:

1) Iluvatar
2) Morgoth (early times)
3) Aratar
4) Other Valar
5) Sauron
6) Other maiar
7) Elves

Of course this is only off the top of my head.

I might add that although there isn't much about what Manwe did (except shaping the sky in the early times), the fact that he had the strongest connection to Iluvatar's design puts him at the top of the Valar.

 

[d4rk3lf]

My personal impression that each "group" (valars, maiars, elves, man... etc) members have different power level in their category.
But the most powerful members of one group, could challenge the average or lower members of above group, and even defeat them.
That being said, I think it's very possible for Feanor and Fingolfin to defeat some maia's.
Turin could possibly defeat some elven lords.
Even man could challenge maia under special circumstances (Witch King, that was given additional power from other maia have challenged Gandalf).

So it was never for me like staright - forward power of some group.
Being member of some some group, can give us just some basic understanding of the expected power, but can vary much in each group.

 

[Ricardo]

That's is if we are talking of fighting power.

Varda or Yavanna are incredibly powerful but not necessarily fit for a fight.

Certainly, Turin, or Tuor, Hurin, Beren and a few other could challenge elves, even elf lords.

Feanor, Fingolfin, Maedhros, Fingon or Finrod could beat lesser Maiar (not Sauron or Eonwe).

Osse could probably hold his own about some of the Valar like Nessa or Vana.

But again, that's not a definition of power, just combat abilities.

 

[d4rk3lf]

Yet, they would all run from Loreth.

 

[Kenrou]

Thank you all for your replies

What about 2nd and 4th? Any hard lore on it, or just best guesses?

 

[Ricardo]

The Valar and Maiar were still there, so were Iluvatar.

Sauron was in the second age, arguably more powerful than in the third, just a weak spirit in the fourth.

Elves's roles were a lot less important in the second, and non-existent in the fourth.