Question concerning Ainur

[LotharArmstrong]

Silly question really but its about the "colours" of the Ainur. Gandalf was Grey (then white), Saruman was White, and Radagast was brown. Are these colours a reflection of their ability with "magic" and are there any other colours?

 

[Beorn]

First off, the wizards are Maiar (singular, Maia). The Ainur were one step above the Maiar.

Check out Who are the Wizards?, Question about Wizards, and The 5 Rods.

For the same information about the wizards three times in a row...
(hehehe)

As far as I know, there aren't any links between color and power, except what your mind may create: White = Most powerful, Grey = has to do with smoke (and therefore fire), Brown = has to do with earth....but then again, you could link any color to anything if you put your mind to it...

 

[Dark_wraith]

well i dunno about you but if colours reflect abilities then i think radagast the 'brown' should be avoided!!!! (scary name!!)

 

[pohuist]

I think Maiar were patr of the Ainur, so I don't see how Ainur were one step above.

I belive you could infer that White is the most powerful as first Saruman and then Gandalf were the most powerful. Grey to me is not fire and smoke but rather very close to white, so, second in power.

 

[Beorn]

Check out Maiar and Ainur. You're right that the Maia are Ainur, but they are 'lesser Ainur'

 

[pohuist]

They are indeed lesser Ainur, but that "Ainur are one step above" does not follow from that. What follows is that some Ainur are lesser than others, Maiar being lesser and Valar being higher.

 

[Gil-Galad]

There're also two blue Maiar who came in Me wiht Gandalf,Radagast an Saruman.They went to the south and eastern parts of Me and nothing is known about them anymore.It's belived that they started doing things similar to the voodo magics,kabalah, etc....

 

[Gil-Galad]

There're also two blue Maiar who came in Me wiht Gandalf,Radagast an Saruman.They went to the south and eastern parts of Me and nothing is known about them anymore.It's belived that they started doing things similar to the voodo magics,kabalah, etc....

 

[Edhel-dûr]

Yes, the Ithryn Luin, their names were Alatar and Pallando.

Greetings.

 

[Gil-Galad]

Geetings for what?

 

[Edhel-dûr]

It is the translation of the Spanish word "saludos".

Greetings XD

 

[Gil-Galad]

oooo......than I'll say :"Pozdravi!"
it's the bulgarian word for greetings.....

 

[HLGStrider]

And I'll say greetings, the English word for Greetings...

You can also call them Istari.

If there was any meaning I think it was physcological, to Tolkien alone. Colors mean and evoke different meanings to different people... personally I think they picked the color they thought brought out their eyes best...

 

[Grond]

Originally posted by Edhel-dûr
Yes, the Ithryn Luin, their names were Alatar and Pallando.

Greetings.

Tolkien never definitively set down what their names were nor whether there missions were successful. These quotes show the confused and unsettled state in which the author left the Blue Wizards.

from Unfinished Tales
"Others there were also: two clad in sea-blue,..."

and this

"Whereas in the essay on the Istari it is said that the two who passed into the East had no names save Ithryn Luin 'the Blue Wizards' (meaning of course that they had no names in the West of Middle-earth), here they are named, as Alatar and Pallando, and are associated with Orome,.."

and this

"Of the Blue little is known in the West, and they had no names save Ithryn Luin 'the Blue Wizards'; for they passed into the East with Curunir, but they never returned, and whether they remained in the East, pursuing there the purposes for which they were sent; or perished; or as some hold were ensnared by Sauron and became his servants, is not now known."

Yet there is an entirely different explanation for the Ithryn Luin in the People's of Middle-earth where it states

from The People's of Middle-earth
"The 'other two' came much earlier, at the same time probably as Glorfindel, when matters became very dangerous in the Second Age. Glorfindel was sent to aid Elrond and was (though not yet said) pre-eminent in the war of Eriador. But the other two Istari were sent for a different purpose. Morinehtar and Romestamo. Darkness-slayer and East-helper. Their task was to circumvent Sauron: to bring help to the few tribes of Men that had rebelled from Melkor-worship, to stir up rebellion ... and after hsi first fall to search out his hiding (in which they failed) and to cause [?dissension and disarray] among the dark East ... who would both in the Second Age and Third Age otherwise have ... outnumbered the West."

So there you have it. Two completely different explanations of "The Blue Wizards".

 

[Lhunithiliel]

for they passed into the East with Curunir,

Well, thanks to Grond ( *bows*) I have learned about the other explanation about the two mistirious Istari. Yet, the above quote makes me willing to speculate about their fate. - You know how it is- when there is no sufficient information, we tend to speculate!

So, if these two came to ME WITH Curunir (Saruman) could we possibly expect that they were in fact Saruman's allies, under his command and therefore - they could have well failed to fulfill the task they had been initially sent with, because they actually had accepted to serve Saruman's aims.

Sorry for the long and complicated sentense!

 

[Ceorl]

Lhunj I have to disagree with you on that. When they first arrived in ME all of the Istari were faithful to the valar and their task. Also they were all allies, one to the other. They Blue wizards were not under the command of Saruman in particular. In Aman they were associated with different hosts completely, the Blue Wizards with Orome, and Saruman with Aule.

Also it is believed that when they journeyed into the East Saruman was still loyal to his cause. It was easy to link the Blue's to the East of ME, as their master Orome was one of the few of the Valar who had any knowledge of the inner parts of ME. He rode there long before the coming of the Elves even, so it is natural to assume that he would have passed on his knowledge to those of his host.

 

[Edhel-dûr]

There is an interesting note of C.Tolkien about the fragment of the Peoples of Middle Earth:

"There are clear evidences of confusion(as he said at one point, `my memory is no longer retentive´); but there are elements in them that are of much interest and should be recorded."(Last Writtings)

So the quote of the Peoples concerning the names of the Istari is very confused ok? and you must see it as complementary information.

And what´s more, at the end of the text they are named again as Alatar and Pallando because Tolkien was thinking in his text of Unfinished Tales to complete it.

There is another quote in the Unfinish Tales that i don´t have in english but they are called Alatar and Pallando again.

So the quotes aren´t contradictory, they are complementary and there is no doubt about their names: Alatar and Pallando.

Greetings.

 

[Gil-Galad]

Lhunithiliel,I agree with Ceorl too.While the five Maiar lived in Valinor they were really faithful.But with human bodies they weren't protected from the "human"weakness.I mean that they would go in power of the evil(as Saruman did)or they would lose or forget their real aim(like Radagast who prefered to spend his time with the animals and the whole nature).That's why Saruman became "bad" long after he had arrived in ME.

 

[Grond]

Originally posted by Edhel-dûr
There is an interesting note of C.Tolkien about the fragment of the Peoples of Middle Earth:

"There are clear evidences of confusion(as he said at one point, `my memory is no longer retentive´); but there are elements in them that are of much interest and should be recorded."(Last Writtings)

So the quote of the Peoples concerning the names of the Istari is very confused ok? and you must see it as complementary information.

And what´s more, at the end of the text they are named again as Alatar and Pallando because Tolkien was thinking in his text of Unfinished Tales to complete it.

There is another quote in the Unfinish Tales that i don´t have in english but they are called Alatar and Pallando again.

So the quotes aren´t contradictory, they are complementary and there is no doubt about their names: Alatar and Pallando.

Greetings.

Alatar is mentioned four times in UT and Pallando is mentioned five times. The fact that they are mentioned more often gives no more credence as it simply provides filler information concerning their affiliation with their particular Vala and their own special friendship. I also see it as no more definitive than the Last Writings in HoMe XII because neither work was published during the author's lifetime. What we have is the son, CT trying to make sense of the writings of his father. It should be noted that Last Writings were written much later than the sections in UT and as such would likely reflect JRRT's later decisions.

 

[Ithrynluin]

Originally posted by Lhunithiliel


So, if these two came to ME WITH Curunir (Saruman) could we possibly expect that they were in fact Saruman's allies, under his command and therefore - they could have well failed to fulfill the task they had been initially sent with, because they actually had accepted to serve Saruman's aims.

I wouldn't go that far,Saruman is powerful,but doesn't possess such supreme power as to draw 2 maiar (one of them,Allatar I think,was supposedly very very powerful) to himself and even command them.
I agree with Tolkien - the Ithryn Luin succeeded in their task,whatever it was...