Question concerning Ainur

[Grond]

Originally posted by ithrynluin
I wouldn't go that far,Saruman is powerful,but doesn't possess such supreme power as to draw 2 maiar (one of them,Allatar I think,was supposedly very very powerful) to himself and even command them.
I agree with Tolkien - the Ithryn Luin succeeded in their task,whatever it was...

LOL! Depends on whether you believe J. R. R. T. when he wrote this...

from Unfinished Tales, The Istari, Note 3
In a letter written in 1958 my father said that he knew nothing clearly about "the other two," since they were not concerned in the history oh the North-west of Middle-earth. "I think," he wrote, "they went as emissaries to distant regions, East and South, far out of Numenorean range: missionaries to enemy-occupied lands, as it were. What success they had I do not know; but I fear that they failed, as Saruman did, though doubtless in different ways; and I suspect they were founders or beginners of secret cults and 'magic' traditions that outlasted the fall of Sauron."

or when he wrote this...

from The People's of Middle-earth
The 'other two' came much earlier, at the same time probably as Glorfindel, when matters became very dangerous in the Second Age. Glorfindel was sent to aid Elrond and was (though not yet said) pre-eminent in the war of Eriador. But the other two Istari were sent for a different purpose. Morinehtar and Romestamo. Darkness-slayer and East-helper. Their task was to circumvent Sauron: to bring help to the few tribes of Men that had rebelled from Melkor-worship, to stir up rebellion ... and after his first fall to search out his hiding (in which they failed) and to cause [?dissension and disarray] among the dark East ... who would both in the Second Age and Third Age otherwise have ... outnumbered the West.

Who do you believe??? Tolkien or Tolkien?? LOL!

 

[HLGStrider]

I find Tolkien more trustworthy that Tolkien, personally...

As for the name thing, think of how many names Gandalf had. Is it possible that they did have more than one name, one set of which were those mentioned?

Personally I think I need to reread all this, but I'm not sure about struggling with the local library again to get those books...

 

[Grond]

Elgee, the names really aren't the issue, rather the Ithryn Luin's final destination and their final destiny is what is really being discussed. On the one hand, Tolkien tells us they surely failed in their mission and pretty much caved to Sauron and in the other saying they were likely successful in their mission by turning many in the East from Melkor/Sauron worship.

Note: The last scenario from The Peoples of Middle-earth doesn't wash with the Letters where Tolkien says all failed in their mission save Gandalf.

 

[Walter]

In the issue about the names of the Ithryn Luin the Blue Wizards I find myself in agreement with Grond (hear, hear ). Tolkien (JRR) doesn't seem to make a connection between them and the names Alatar and Pallando, respectively Morinehtar and Rómestámo (or Róme(n)star), only Christopher does.

 

[Aldanil]

Fanfare for the Flattener of Finwe!

Bravo for Bauglir's Battle-Banger!

"Greetings" to Grond, who best makes the case that we're really graced with a conundrum re these Ithryn Luin: beyond the differences in the two pairs of names for them given, the separation in time for their arrival in Middle-earth is fully an Age of the world! My own sense of which version to prefer or hold more reliable leans toward accepting & affirming the POME account on general principle as being the later, all else being equal; the consideration of coherence within the larger published context, which (necessarily) led Christopher to certain editorial decisions regarding The Silmarillion and his father's hopeful but very late intention to recast it substantially, seems less important in this case, as both these answers to the riddle of the Blue Wizards are brief, self-contained, and fairly fragmentary. I rather get the feeling from the Letters that there were quite a number of questions about the myriad details of Middle-earth which hadn't made much particular claim on their sub-Creator's attention until prompted by the inquiry of his admiring readers.

To put forward two fairly well-known examples in support of the point, the fact that John Ronald freely admitted knowing no better than the hobbits did themselves just who Strider was when first they met him in Bree, and that the noble Ringbearer who shares an equinoctial birthday with his uncle Bilbo on Sunday (it presently being the small hours of Saturday morning as I ramble thus garrulous) was named "Bingo" [!!] for some goodly while in the early stages of LOTR's evolution, clearly illustrates the revelatory nature of Tolkien's working method for Tale-making: not "making stuff up" but rather exploring, excavating like an archaeologist with tools narrative, intuitive, and primarily linguistic to uncover and reconstruct the true history of Arda, delving ever deeper over time to find the mithril lying hidden.

The first account, from 1958, reflects IMHO a relatively low level of speculative energy brought to bear on this matter of "the other two"; we do know that JRRT had a lot else on his mind in that decade, nearly the first half of which was consumed with the considerable struggle just to get LOTR into print! (Which difficulty truly seems astonishing in retrospect, doesn't it? Like those other British recording companies who decided to pass on the chance to put the Beatles under contract...) Among the sharpest pangs I felt as a sophomore in college that day in early September twenty-nine summers ago when I heard Tolkien had died was that now I would never have the chance to send him the letter I'd been drafting in my head since freshman year in high school, to offer my sincerest rune-enhanced adulation and inquire eagerly after whatever more might be known of the unnamed Istari. I never did write to ask, alas, but dozens if not hundreds of others must have; and the later account presented in HOME XII seems to me the product of a more sustained (and substantially more positive, if still quite undeveloped) attention to the question.

A useful focus for our own "archaeological" and discursive energies on the subject might be the linguistic resonance and implications of the two pairs of names: the earlier Alatar and Pallando sound a different note in my semi-discerning ear for Elvish echoes than the later appellations of Morinehtar and Romestamo, the latter of which seems especially redolent of Orome. Certainly "Darkness-slayer and East-helper" offer greater possibilities for speculation on subsequent subtle or indirect influence, and it makes me happier to think that the Valar had a better day at the plate than to go only one for five in their emissary-sending...

 

[Grond]

Man, I've missed you Aldanil. Where the heck have you been?

 

[HLGStrider]

Alandil, I would like you to know that I find your posts slightly sadistic!

How can I get done in a half hour if you do this to me?!?!?!? urg........................................................... sigh.... Now I have to actually think...

 

[Gil-Galad]

"Slightly sadistic"?HLGStrider,you're so polite with Aldanil.
I must cofess this is one of the bes posts I have ever read

 

[HLGStrider]

It was a good post, but it was sadistic because I get back from college and I am thinking I will get online and relax and not think too deeply, just enough to deal with life, and then there is this huge post and now I HAVE to think... It is sadistic.

And that was a long sentence....

 

[pohuist]

Aldanil, with all due respect, there is a thing called "." and it helps to have more than one of those in a paragraph. (I have always been taught that a paragraph is a number of sentences, not one sentence)

Great post, though...

 

[Lantarion]

Pretty damn good post [for being written in the small hours of Saturday morning]!!
Welcome home, Aldanil.

 

[Gil-Galad]

Originally posted by HLGStrider
It was a good post, but it was sadistic because I get back from college and I am thinking I will get online and relax and not think too deeply, just enough to deal with life, and then there is this huge post and now I HAVE to think... It is sadistic.

And that was a long sentence....

You should try to think harder and longer.When you become a famouse scientist you'll have to think .......wow.........VERY MUCH ,that will be sadistic.Now just have a rest and see how's your cat !

 

[HLGStrider]

He's fine except that he got into a cat fight with the big mean stray tabby who lives in the barn and his ear was cut pretty bad... poor darling...

not scientist... writer... writer writer writer.

 

[Gil-Galad]

Originally posted by HLGStrider
He's fine except that he got into a cat fight with the big mean stray tabby who lives in the barn and his ear was cut pretty bad... poor darling...

not scientist... writer... writer writer writer.

Ok. don't be so nervous .You'll be a writer.If I were you I would go to a doctor to see your cat's ear.

 

[HLGStrider]

He'll be okay. Cats are self-healing and it isn't bad enough to need stitches... though it certainly doesn't help him cosmetically.

 

[Gil-Galad]

Originally posted by HLGStrider
He'll be okay. Cats are self-healing and it isn't bad enough to need stitches... though it certainly doesn't help him cosmetically.

I think you should buy him some cosmetics

 

[HLGStrider]

It's a good thing I know an avon lady...

 

[Gil-Galad]

Originally posted by HLGStrider
It's a good thing I know an avon lady...

OO give her to me!My dog needs some cosmetics too

 

[HLGStrider]

Would the dog like some eyeshadow?

hmmmmmmm

 

[Gil-Galad]

I'll check!!!