Racism in Tolkien

I just did.

Narya said:

I just did.

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Perhaps you can provide a quote from JRR Tolkien, not a fan based website, to substatiate your claim.
For example, I will provide this quote from LotR:
"An Elven-maid there was of old,
A shining star by day:
Her mantle white was hemmed with gold,
Her shoes of silver-grey.

A star was bound upon her brows,
A light was on her hair
As sun upon the golden boughs
In Lórien the fair.

Her hair was long, her limbs were white,
And fair she was and free;
And in the wind she went as light
As leaf of linden-tree."
Emphasis added.
This is the song Legolas sings of Nimrodel, the wood-elf.

Ok, look, even though I got it from a fan-based website, that doesn't mean it isn't well-researched. They wouldn't post it there if it wasn't. Don't worry, I will try to find it cause I did read it in one of the books, it's just that I can't remember which at the moment. But every fan knows this fact, some elves aren't fair-skinned. Not all of them are WHITE.

Narya said:

Ok, look, even though I got it from a fan-based website, that doesn't mean it isn't well-researched.

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It also doesn't mean that it is.

Narya said:

They wouldn't post it there if it wasn't.

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See, this is a big mistake to make if you are looking for information on Tolkien's Middle-earth. Websites can and do give false information. A good site to trust will give you passages from Tolkien, and give reference to books and sometimes page numbers... then you can go read the information for yourself. You're free trust whichever sources you like, but to take things as fact is a mistake. People make honest mistakes when they write about Middle-earth, and even the most learned people may present opinions in a way that a reader can confuse it with the facts.

Please check this thread for an extreme example:

http://thetolkien.forum/showthread.php?t=13146

Don't worry, I did read a passage about Wood-Elves having dark skin, Tar. I did say I will find it. So wait for it, ok?

As for your post of the quote from Tolkien, that doesn't say much, because it only tells of one particular elf. It doesn't mean that all of them are the same.

Narya said:

Ok, look, even though I got it from a fan-based website, that doesn't mean it isn't well-researched. They wouldn't post it there if it wasn't.

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I can find a number of things that on the site that I would consider 'not well researched'.

Don't worry, I will try to find it cause I did read it in one of the books, it's just that I can't remember which at the moment. But every fan knows this fact, some elves aren't fair-skinned. Not all of them are WHITE.

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The only statement that JRRT made even resembling something that might support your assertion was that some of the Noldor were "ruddy" in complexion, primarily, it would seem, those of the kin of Nerdanel, wife of Feanor. But I will look forward to reading the quote from JRRT that you provide.

Well, you know what you just answered Intejit's statement that all elves are white.

Thank you Tar. Because of your research, I just proved NOT ALL ELVES of Tolkien are White.

Narya said:

Well, you know what you just answered Intejit's statement that all elves are white.

Thank you Tar. Because of your research, I just proved NOT ALL ELVES of Tolkien are White.

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"Ruddy" ('tinged with red') does not equal 'not-white', nor does it support your contention of "Wood-Elves having dark skin". I would still appreciate seeing the passage you have indicated there is, that notes this.

I suggest you review your knowledge of Tolkien's work

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I suggest you do the same instead of picking off information from dodgy websites. A good reference page for Tolkien is:The Tolkien Wikki

Tar-Elenion's quote from the 'Shibboleth of Fëanor' in which it is stated that some of Nerdanel's kin had a ruddy complexion doesn't in any way substantiate your claim of dark skinned Elves. I myself have found no such evidence that supports this.

Inderjit S said:

I suggest you do the same instead of picking off information from dodgy websites. A good reference page for Tolkien is:The Tolkien Wikki

Tar-Elenion's quote from the 'Shibboleth of Fëanor' in which it is stated that some of Nerdanel's kin had a ruddy complexion doesn't in any way substantiate your claim of dark skinned Elves. I myself have found no such evidence that supports this.

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But Inder... what about the swart Meglin?

PS: his people were ruddy.

About Nerdanel's kin, it is my personal belief these ruddy ones were probably more pale than your typical Noldor. I just base this on the fact that red hair also ran in that family... and among us people red-heads often burn up rather than tan.

But Inder... what about the swart Meglin?

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heh. Didn't he have Orks blood in him.

correct my statement: "...doesn't in any way substantiate your claim of dark skinned Elves. I myself have found no such evidence that supports this. Unless of course that Elf's grandmother was a Orkish princess."

Anyway, BoLT cannot be taken into account in this matter. (This is for Narya not you Nom, I know you posted that as a joke.)

About Nerdanel's kin, it is my personal belief these ruddy ones were probably more pale than your typical Noldor

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(5) Carnistir 'red-face' - he was dark (brown) haired, but had the ruddy complexion of his mother.

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The Shibboleth of Fëanor (HoME 12)

'ruddy complexion' always conveyed (to me) someone who had freckles. That might explain why the beautiful Elves felt Nerdanel was a ugly duckling.

baragund said:

How many blond haired / blue eyed characters are there in your typical African or Aborigine mythology?

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Exactly!!! Thank you!

Lotho

J.R.R. TOLKIEN WAS NOT A RACIST!!!! That's all I have to say.

Tolkien wasn't a racist, but he lived in a time when colonisation was rule and order.

Think gondor had in past decades handle deals with harad, and before that it were the numenoreans, who had plunderd the natural recources of ME. doesn't this begin to sound a bit like colonialism?

I think that a attack of people from the south, being black brown, yellow or green, is the expression of the feelings against the colonial leaders, the people in the north.

(one question: why should it be wrong for tolkien to be for a tiny bit a racist, which was not thougt strange in his time. While tintin in africa, a world bestseller comic book from about the same age was as racist as can be and still is appreciated?)

If you don't know this book, click here it's really as reacist as can be... It shows very well how people in the time of tolkien thought about africans.

Colonialism was of course prevalent back then. Most European nations (Britain, France, England, Portugal) had colonies. Germany had few colonies in comparison, but that was because of the anti-colonialism attitude of Bismarck (albeit that was some half a century earlier, but Bismarck was the main architect in Germany's foreign affairs in the previous century and by the time of his departure most of the rival European nations had large colonial territories of their own.)

European nations had effectively colonialised most of the world. (The Middle-East, came under Franco-British control as a result of the Sykes-Picot agreement, in which the two agreed to divide the former Ottoman territory between themselves, with Syria and Lebanon under French control and 'Iraq' (formed by joining together Kirkuk and Mosul) was established by Winston Churchill as a consolation to Faisal Hussein for the French take over of Syria, and as a brilliant oil resource.

Colonialism was more prevalent in Africa then anywhere else. (Even America, the famous anti-colonialists had a pseudo-colony in Africa 'Liberia' where many slaves wishing to go back to Africa went) but colonialism was viewed with disgust in a post-WW2 age (of course the roots for national-self determination had been sown by Wilson's 14 points after WW1.) and many people felt colonialism was incompatible with the U.N charter and many European nations began to let go of their colonies.

We now of course get the new age neo-colonialism, in which companies and some nations may impose socio-economic hegemony on 'undeveloped' countries in order to gain financial affluence from certain states (a.l.a IMF, Globalisation etc.)

I nice book, (if you are interested) to read on colonialsm is Chinua Achebe's brilliant 'Things Fall Apart'.

On the skin-colour of elves...

In "Morgoth's Ring", Tolkien described the Gnomes (i.e., Noldor) as having skin of "dark hue" (and their eyes were grey). CT mentions that this didn't make into the final Silmarillion (probably just forgotten). Make of it what you will.

Can you provide a quote please? I cannot find that in 'Morgoth's Ring'.

(probably just forgotten).

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Or rejected. (Appendix F; LoTR S.A 1966. It is said that the Ñoldor were 'pale-skinned,' This would preclude any notion of dark-skinned Noldor.) If the Ñoldor were dark-skinned then the Teleri and it's branches would be too, since the Sindar were physically similar to the Ñoldor. ('Quendi and Eldar' HoME 11)

Germany had few colonies in comparison, but that was because of the anti-colonialism attitude of Bismarck (albeit that was some half a century earlier,

Maybe it had more to do with the fact that England & Spain had scoffed up most of the world centuries earlier?

Yes, but Bismarck failed to seize upon the opportunities when the time came. 'Germany' has also only existed for a short period of time. Originally it consisted of 390 quasi-independent states under the nominal rule of the Holy Roman Empire. (Who at the time was the ruler of Austria, one of the two dominant states in 'Germany'.)

But Prussia and Austria were defeated by France under Napoleon who reduced the no. of states to 39, many smaller states being amalgamated and 14 were under French rule. (The ubiquitous 'Confederation of the Rhine').

Naturally anti-French dissonance arose and Prussia (with a revitalised regime) Austria and Russia launched a united front and defeated Napoleon in the Battle of Leipzig and the victorious allies then marched into France and forced the abdication of Napoleon.

The subsequent 'Vienna Settlement' in which the Dual Powers (Austria and Prussia) ordained that the German Confederation was created with the aim of 'maintaining the internal and external security, and integrity of individual states' This pseudo-German state existed in relative peace for some years, whilst the clamour for a unification by various people grew, things like the German philosopher’s Herder and Hegel's views and the interstate trade union the 'Zollverien' (headed by Prussia who were for (at the time) a unification. The Zollverien acted a tool in which Prussia could establish hegemony over the German Confed. and have more influence and power then their conservative opponents Austria.

There was a failed revolution in 1848 in which a attempt at a unified Germany failed miserably. Then, after defeating France and Austria in separate wars, Prussia was able to establish an augmented, unified Germany, which was established in 1871, under the rule of William I, though Bismarck (minister president of Prussia) was the real brains behind the operation and he became chancellor. That’s is as a terse history of Germany unification as I can manage and is another factor in it's lack of colonies.

Also the fact that Germany was a land-locked state and wasn't really interested in marining etc. is a factor.

Inderjit S said:

Can you provide a quote please? I cannot find that in 'Morgoth's Ring'.

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Let's see... p169: "At the end of the paragraph he added to Text A: 'Dark is their hue and grey are their eyes'; this did not get into the later typescripts. See I.44."