Rhûn, Khand and Harad

This is a very old thread but I was just reading some of this stuff and it's very interesting to me. That there are huge parts of ME that are unexplored etc is very interesting. I mean, did those continents far to the south and east know of Sauron or the ring or the Eldar or the Valar or anything? What happened there? I mean I'm sure there are tribes of men and dwarves and probably many tribes of Avari as well. Are they as splendid as their kindred in the mainstream areas of ME? I haven't had a chance to read a lot of HOME but hope Tolkien touched on this stuff somewhere. Anyone else interested in this a lot?

The fact that Haradrim are often considered to be Arab-like its because of geographical and historical stereotypes. For most people, if someone lives in a desert, has a swarthy skin and uses in battle a curved sword, it is automatically an "Arab"...

In the books, however, the Haradrim have little if any to do with Arabs. The Haradrim have black skin, they ride war elephants, use a lot of gold jewelry and are dressed in scarlet. They do not have a unified leadership, and are backwards and uncivilized comparing to the glory of the kingdom of Gondor. If anything, they resemble pretty much the early Nubians who often fought and attacked the southern borders of Egypt, or maybe the armies of later African kingdoms such as Songhai or Mali. The troll-man of Far Harad, are obviously representing some tribal people.

I guess that when they made the movies, the producers had some really tough jobs to do. If they would have kept to the book and would have depicted the Haradrim indeed as African people, it would have caused a media scandal with epic proportions in countries such as USA where political correctness is valued above everything...

In such a situatian, and taking also into account the fact that the movies are expected to get most of their audiences in western countries, i guess they decided to depict them as Arabs, as anyway, in the current geopolitical situation, Arabs are perceived as universal villains... And putting them to sing a Maori war chant during their charge on the Fields of Pellenor did not change much.

I mean, did those continents far to the south and east know of Sauron or the ring or the Eldar or the Valar or anything? What happened there? I mean I'm sure there are tribes of men and dwarves and probably many tribes of Avari as well. Are they as splendid as their kindred in the mainstream areas of ME?

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Tolkien never wrote anything about those places and far distant countries...

I never stated Tolkien wrote anything about these places, I was just stating how I feel about them and how it interests me that they exist at all but little or nothing (mainly nothing) is written.

This thread is full of conjectural, PC-driven BS in plain English....

Perhaps we should do something crazy for this day & age: Let's actually look at the facts & put aside our own opinions & agendas!

What does the text actually say? :*eek:


First, Harad certainly appears to be Africa if you see Tolkien's early maps of M-e....

You can probably find some maps on this site (sorry, I'm not much at computer navigation, et all). Otherwise, try google. ;*)

Heck, even Anduin running into the Bay of Belfalas with Gondor on one side & Umbar on the other looks suspiciously like the Med. Sea, no?

So, folks certainly have a strong argument that Tolkien's intention was that M-e IS the Euraisian/African land mass 'thousands of years ago' & I'd agree with that.

Now, onto the look of those people:

Should they not look like people from those areas do? Doesn't that make good common sense?

What does the text say?

Is there more than just the shape of the sword to say the people were a certain race?

You bet there is.......


First, let's look at Harad:

It's always divided into 'Near Harad' & 'Far Harad'. Since 'Near Harad' is closer to Gondor, they had the most battles & contact with the People of the West.

How are thery described?

Let's look at the battle where Faramir's force attacks them coming up the South Road after capturing Frodo & Sam in the Chapter 'Of Herbs & Stewed Rabbit':

Remember the Haradrim soldier who gets killed & falls at Frodo & Sam's feet with an arrow in his neck? He is described thusly:

'....green arrow-feathers sticking from his neck below a golden collar. His scarlet robes were tattered, his corslet of overlapping brazen plates was rent & hewn, his black plaits of hair braided with gold were drenched with blood. His BROWN hand still clutched the hilt of a broken sword.'

Now, let's note:

1. Black plaited (braided) hair ~ that means long & somewhat straight.
2. Brown skin.
3. The dress certainly brings up images of Arabian Knights.

So, I think a strong argument can be made that Near Harad is populated by an Arab-like population....


How about Far Harad (get ready for a 'doozy', all you PC'ers):

In 'The Battle of the Pelannor Fields', here's the description:

'..and out of Far Harad black men like half-trolls with white eyes and red tongues.'

No question Far Harad is inhabited by Black People, right?

Now, before you call Tolkien a racist, let us examine the true facts:

1. This was the 1940's or 50's when he wrote this, not today.
2. This is supposed to be written from the viewpoint of a Hobbit who has never seen a Black Man before, so how would one expect them to report it?


As for the Easterlings, all that is said of them is they are 'swarthy', meaning 'dark'. This leads me to conclude they are more Persian/Indian/Mongolian than Asian & from where they live on the map, this makes perfect sense.

Are the facts clear enough?

I think so.

Anamatar IV said:

i have a question. Whats east, east, east, past the iron hills, so far east. Whats out over there? To the west oer the sea is the undying land. so whats to the east?

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Good question. Well, some main "landmarks" in Aman are the Doors of Night and Taniquetil. The Door of Night is the door through which the Sun passed as it came over the Pélori. It also happens to be the door through which Morgoth was thrown at the end of the Second Age. Anyways, in the far, far east, there is a counter-part mountain range to the Pélori, called the Wall of the Sun. It's highest peak is called "Kalormë". It's also on the Girdle of Arda, like Taniquetil, however it isn't as high. At the eastern edge of this land are the Gates of Morning. This is the pass through which the Sun "enters" the world. It's also a much "happier" place than the Door of Night. I'm getting all of my information from Karen Wyn-Fonstad's "Revised Edition of an Atlas of Middle-earth". :*)

Zalmoxis said:

The fact that Haradrim are often considered to be Arab-like its because of geographical and historical stereotypes. For most people, if someone lives in a desert, has a swarthy skin and uses in battle a curved sword, it is automatically an "Arab"...

In the books, however, the Haradrim have little if any to do with Arabs. The Haradrim have black skin, they ride war elephants, use a lot of gold jewelry and are dressed in scarlet. They do not have a unified leadership, and are backwards and uncivilized comparing to the glory of the kingdom of Gondor. If anything, they resemble pretty much the early Nubians who often fought and attacked the southern borders of Egypt, or maybe the armies of later African kingdoms such as Songhai or Mali. The troll-man of Far Harad, are obviously representing some tribal people.

I guess that when they made the movies, the producers had some really tough jobs to do. If they would have kept to the book and would have depicted the Haradrim indeed as African people, it would have caused a media scandal with epic proportions in countries such as USA where political correctness is valued above everything...

In such a situatian, and taking also into account the fact that the movies are expected to get most of their audiences in western countries, i guess they decided to depict them as Arabs, as anyway, in the current geopolitical situation, Arabs are perceived as universal villains... And putting them to sing a Maori war chant during their charge on the Fields of Pellenor did not change much.



Tolkien never wrote anything about those places and far distant countries...

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Actually, this is not quite accurate as far as the books go.....

Harad is clearly divided into two sections, much like it's real life duplicate, Africa: Near Harad (North Africa) & Far Harad (Africa proper)..

And as such, it's people mirror the people in our real Africa....

The Hardrim ride 'Oliphants', but they clearly have 'brown skin' & 'long plaits of black hair', not afros.. they are not Black Men, but Brown. Arabian, regardless of the fact 'oliphants' don't fit..

This isn't racism, lol ~ it's fantasy mixed into a 'prehistoric reality of our world'.. It does not have to be exact...

Especially to the confining judgments of a politically correct world 60 years after it's writing.

Lantarion said:

A very informative book is Karen Wynn-Fonstad's revised edition of 'An Atlas of Middle-Earth'. Check it out.

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the late Karen W-F's book is a superb treatise on the geography and geology of Arda and opened new vistas for me on Tolkien's world

The fanzine Niekas 18 published in late spring 1967 contains an interview with Tolkien. The full fanzine can be found at http://efanzines.com/Niekas/index.htm .

This is from that interview from page 41:
The word Arab properly refers to an inhabitant of the Arabian peninsula (or to descendants of such). The word is today loosely used for any inhabitant of Arabia or the area to the north, or to inhabitants of North Africa, and tends to be somewhat synonymous with Muslim because Islam is the dominant faith in that area. This is the result of the rise of the Muslim religion in the 7th century and subsequent invasions of the north and of North Africa by Muslims. The events in The Lord of the Rings are imagined to have taken place long before this.

That Tolkien’s Haradrim ride elephants derives from the (Indo-European) Persians and North Africans and Greeks of classical times. Historically war elephants were first used by Hindus, then used by the Persians, from whom the Greek adapted them. North Africans also began to use war elephants. During the Second Punic War, Hannibal (from Carthage in North Africa) famously led an army of war elephants across the Alps.

Then, for some reason, the use of elephants died out in the west and was less used in the Middle-east. In the Muslim period elephants were seldom used in war.

Medieval Christian writers sometimes exaggerated eastern use of elephants, in which case elephants might appear in their works as part of any pagan army. For example, in the Vulgate Merlin the giant King Rion of Denmark and Ireland rides under a standard born by four elephants.

Brown skin was as common in pre-Muslim days in North Africa and the Near East as it is now. Who in a tale where lighter skin is the norm would present characters from such a location in a tale and not mention it, if skin colour is mentioned at all?

Far Harad appears to correspond to Sub-Saharan Africa with its “black men like half-trolls with white eyes and red tongues.” This is a description of true Sub-Saharan blacks as unsympathetically viewed by the besieged forces in Minas Tirith.

None of these are imagined to be Arabs. Presumably a small number among those from Near Harad could be imagined to be the distant ancestors of the later nomads of Arabia, just as some among the Dunlanders supporting Saruman could be imagined to be distant ancestors of some modern Europeans. (And vice versa.)

That Tolkien’s Haradrim use scimitars is similar to the Rohirrim being armed like those at the historic battle of Hastings. The scimitar is a suitable type of sword to be born non-Europeans who are enemies. Historically, however, no iron or steel weapons of any kind would have been used in this supposed era. Here Tolkien may be fairly accused of introducing a weapon now strongly connected with Muslim warriors into his tales and ascribing its use to the supposed pre-Muslim inhabitants of North Africa.

i seem to recall tolkien referring to the haradrim at least once as "dark" men (i need to go back and dig up that source), but that could just as easily refer to clothing or demeanor as skin tone. that said, i always pictured the haradrim as darker in skin tone (black or arab-esque), with no racist connotations or implications. M-E is a vast continent, full of MANY types of Men, Elves, and funny little furry people living in holes.

edit: this came from wikipedia which names some haradrim as explicitly dark-skinned, but sounds a little more racist than i had been hoping

Later men of Far Harad are described as black-skinned, but there is also a group of them described as "black men like half-trolls with white eyes and red tongues" and "troll-men".

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I don't see Lord of the Rings as centered on Europe, except with the Elves and Hobbits of the Northwest, I see it where all man-made fantasy centers: on the Promised Jerusalem. While the Haradrim are similar to the Saudi ISIS bedouin Arabs, I think the Gondorians are most like the ancient Arabs/Semites of Syria, Lebanon, and Palestine, along with the Greeks and other Mediterreans: not dark, not blonde, but mixed in the middle like:

Beor the Old, forefather of the Gondorians, was like Shem son of Noah, who was father of the modern Arabs and ancient Jews of the Eastern Mediterranean Sea, aka the Bay of Belfalas.

Even the name of the most southeastern part of Gondor is called Lebennin, which is obviously alluding to real-life Lebanon and it's proximity to the Holy Land, which is taken over by Sauron in Mordor, which represents modern Israel both of which are oppressive in modern days, and influences the extremists of ISIS in Harad.

As for the places: Rhun, it is by far Russia. Khand by its name alone signifies Iran and Turan (Turkistan). Harad is Southie Arabia and Sahara down to the lands of the Black Africans, Rhovanian is Germany because of the forested bridge between East and West North and South, and Eriador is Western Europe France, Lindon is London, and with Arnor being the Western Rome/ Italy, and Gondor being the Eastern Mediterranean centered on Greece, Anatolia before the Turks came, and Syria-Lebanon. Umber is def North Africa because it has the best pirates like in Algeria and Tripoli.

Numenor is Ancient Egypt with all its glory swollen and it's last King named At-Pharazon aka Pharaoh, and the men who left to find Gondor are like the people of Moses aka Elendil, and hence the plot that Gondor is the Holy Land thickens. Mordor is the corruption of that God-given land manifested in the fabricated military fortress of modern Zionist Israel, begun by Sauron servent of Melkor aka Amerigoth. Valinor Aman is America when it gets its act together and stops being like Morgoth (AmeriCor).

Man and Elf... and Dwarf: Man are like the 3 sons of Noah the 3 Races: White Aryan Hador, Grey Semite Beor, and Black African Haldor. The Elves are like the Celts who once we're spread throughout Europe but later remained only on the far Western reaches, with the Men in that Northwestern region being the Hadoric like Vikings. The Dwarves are like Slavic whites from the East who are stern and stocky, although the Easterling Men do also pass for Slavs of Rhun Russia.

From the Silmarillion, Tolkien alluded much to the Bible, and he wrote his notes while he was a soldier stationed in North Africa during WWI and learned from the people there about the Ancient Middle East and religions like Islam. He knew something that a lot of us overlook in our Eurocentric world, and the more I study Tolkien, the more amazed I am at his foresight.

Peace and Blessings of Allah aka Iluvatar aka Allahvatar be upon you all.

i always imagined the harad to be the middle east and africa.

rhun as asia.

khand as the asian steppes

Yes, Tolkien did base his cultures upon existing cultural stereotypes.

In The Letters of JRR Tolkien he makes reference to a "Byzantine" quality of Gondor. This does not mean that they are allegorical Byzantines (although that is kind of what they are, if you look at the history). And we have the entirety being a Myth for the Anglo-Saxons of England.

Remember that Tolkien is a Catholic, and a Historian, who deals with Languages.

Given these things, you have a couple of questions that are begged in the underlying assumptions:

Who were the Anglo-Saxons, and what is their relationship to Christianity?

What was Dark Ages Christianity at that time in relation to the rest of the world?

Gondor (and Arnor) represents the "Faithful" peoples of the world (even if they are explicitly a Pagan Culture). They are a "Rome/Byzantine" archetype (and here we bring into this issue some Science that isn't specific to Tolkien, but to all myths).

What was Dark Ages Christianity, specifically Rome and Byzantium threatened by?

That would be:

• Eastern Barbarians (Easterlings), who were a combination of Germanic Steppe Tribes and Scandinavians, and then Asiatic and Turkish Steppe Tribes, and then East Asian Hordes.

1) The Germanic Steppe Tribes and Scandinavians would be:
– The Avars, Vandals, and Goths
– And then later the Vikings, who were actually called "Easterlings" by the Anglo-Saxons in England when Lödgar Lothbroke invaded England.

2) These would be the Huns, Magyar and Bulgars.

3) These would be the Mongols, Khurasanis, Kwarizmians, and Golden Horde.

Hmmmm??? This seems to be AWFULLY CLOSE to the "Easterlings" described by Tolkien.

1) In the First Age you have the "Easterlings" who aid Morgoth, who all have Russo-Viking or JomsViking names (Easter Scandinavians)
– And in Rhovanion you have the "Goths" (ALL of the Northmen of Rhovanion have textbook Gothic Names: Marwhimi, Marhari, Vinumavi, Vigugavia, etc..

2) Then you have the Wainriders and Balcoth, who resemble the Huns, Magyars, and Bulgar invasions (with some Mongol and Chinese mixed in).

3) And then you have the Mongol Hordes of the later Third Age and the War of the Rings.



Now, let's look at the Haradrim:

During the Kin-strife, the descendants of Castamir create what are called the "Corsairs."

In Europe, the "Corsairs" were Libyan Arab Pirates who plied the Mediterranean for roughly 1,000 years. They were Muslims.

Who was another Great Enemy of Rome?

That would be the Muslims, both the Arabs and the Turks.

And Africa, South of Rome was where the Arabs established what is known as the "Islamic Maghreb," where the Libyan Corsairs were established.

Also out of Far-Harad, we have the "Black Half-Troll-Men," who are pretty explicit stereotypes of Black, sub-Saharan Africans. Geographically, this places them, both in our world, and in Middle-earth in IDENTICAL LOCATIONS: directly south of the Islamic Maghreb/Haradrim.



Now.... What about Khand?

Here it gets a bit murkier. But we still have a clue:

Varyags. The Varyags of Khand.

The word "Varyag" is a Byzantine word that is the root of the word "Varangian," who were the Royal Guards of the Byzantines.

They were originally Norsemen, but during the latter Dark Ages they became instead a mixture of Russo-Urgic Peoples, and Turkish. The word was also applied to Jomsvikings (Eastern Vikings - who were said to be Darker than typical Scandinavians, and mixed with Asian Stock - very fierce and horrific warriors though).

And where did the "Varyags of Khand" originate from?

Tolkien describes them as being remnants of the Wainriders and Balchoth who were relocated out of Rhovanion and into the south-East (the region of Khand).

That is very much similar to how the Rus, in the Ukraine and Crimea in the Dark Ages got there. They were a southerly Branch of Easterling-Vikings.


That Tolkien would, and DID stereotype is not a crime itself. It is problematic for Modernity, and a pluralistic societies we have today. But Tolkien was a product of his time, Religion, and upbringing.

He was a very conservative, Catholic, Middle-class (meaning Upper-class for the USA) Monarchist who harbored all of the conceits of that class, for good or ill.

He was no outright Racist, but he did have prejudices given to all of those of his time, which today look very much like racism.

And while he may have rejected intentional allegory, that isn't to say that Tolkien did not accidentally create allegory through the use of something called an "Archetype," of which he would have been unaware he was doing, given that the study of Archetypes was contemporary to his creation of Middle-earth (in the worlds of Karl Jung and, especially, Joseph Campbell - whom I studied with for a couple of years formally just before his death in the 1980s).

I will need to go back through the last volume of HoM-e to see if there are any specifics in this beyond the term "varyag."

MB

I think the question first put was not answered to the point. The people(eldar, men and dwarves) far south and east knew of Sauron only as a great lord whom they worked for. But about the ring they knew or not I have no idea. About Eldar they would know only scarcely as they had no battles with elves since the Third Age. I also have a desire to explore the lands of Ea. But I want to see the beautiful places like Doriath, Gondolin and Aman.

All I said was not taken from anywhere but some obvious facts which have come through the reading about Middle Earth from so many years.
Thatswhy I was named Ingolmo. One day I will even become Tar Ingolmin.