Rings of Power: Positive vs Negative

Aldarion said:

"Choosing meaningful battles"

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I have determined in the last few minutes of pondering, this issue of 'choosing meaningful battles' is singular to each individual. We all have very different sets of values and very different views of the important in life, depending on how we define and construct our lives.

Tolkien had a good philosophy on that, and he expressed it well through Frodo and Gandalf. I will follow that path going forward.

‘I wish it need not have happened in my time,’ said Frodo.
‘So do I,’ said Gandalf, ‘and so do all who live to see such times.
But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us.

Neither Frodo nor Gandalf spent their time complaining about stuff. They simply went around DOING stuff.

So...I will quit complaining about those who are complaining. Such is how they are choosing to spend their time. It is their 'right.'
And my complaining about their complaining is no different.
And I conclude by even attempting to present alternatives, I am wasting my own time.
In effect, the whole is just another example of The Religion of Opinion.

Thus, I will leave all about RoP here behind me, and say nothing more. (Until and unless it becomes abusive to other individuals, at which point I sadly MUST play a role.)

So let it be written...so let it be done.

There is such a thing as legitimate criticism, as Hal himself criticizes dialog in this thread:


I have the feeling that Hal, and to a degree you too, @Ent , has approached the other extreme of dismissing all criticism of RoP as hate speech.
We (should) know where the really hateful bile is spewed from, and not just against RoP, but apparently against nearly everything in "moving pictures" that has an online discussion page. Several who polluted TTF back then have been consigned to the ban bin. As I posted above, the equivalent of football hooligans. Hitting back against this crowd is definitely warranted, not to do so would be channeling Chamberlain in Munich 1938.

And people being disgusted with RoP or anything else can also be legitimate. That's not hatred, so your repeated pontifications about hatred are wide of the mark, Ent. To take up the football analogy, people will be fans of different teams (I know from my pre-retirement days) so their views can be diametrically opposite when their teams face off against each other. And the referees usually get criticized by both sides. Telling them "to get on with their life and forget about their differences" would be very naive (and I'm not saying you're implying it; one can get the impression, though). Again from my pre-retirement days, I know that two such people can be on friendly terms, they just happen to be in different fan camps in football.

Me, I've been disgusted with football since the 1978 World Cup final between host Argentina and the Netherlands, the latter making their second consecutive final appearance - and suffering their second loss. My disgust with "moving pictures" products grew more slowly, though the premiere of "Dallas" on German public TV in 1981 (no private channels back then yet) was a larger blip on the way. But neither disgust affects me adversely.

Aldarion said:

Thank you.

Better sewage than RoP.

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Enjoy ypurself.
.

Ent said:

That's cool. Most hold that view.

The assumption here is it NEEDS to be fixed.

To all who hold these sorts of views, my response is only I hope and trust some day, people learn how to choose meaningful battles to invest their energies in, with far more value in the investment of time spent.

My love for Tolkien and his works is equal to anyone's. Probably greater, and for greater reasons.
But wasting my time spewing venom over RoP has absolutely no meaningful value for the investment of my time. I'm thankful there are some who have the time to spend (waste) doing so. My intent with RoP is simply to "use it as it is fitting and profitable to do so" rather than abuse it because it is there.

Use of it is productive. Abuse of it is futile. It's not going to change.

No one needs to agree with me. The only reason I share my opinion is I feel since I need to suffer through all the negative ones, it's appropriate for others to suffer through my perspective there's a different view to take.

Note once again: I'm NOT saying I like RoP. I'm not really addressing RoP at all. I'm addressing what we DO with what we do not like, how we evaluate its importance in the big scheme of things, and such.

My grandmother spent all her life sitting in the windowed nook of her home, watching the street and what all the neighbors were doing all her life, making sure she knew all she could about what was going on, complaining about every detail she didn't like. As she died, I do hope she realized what a waste her life had been. But I doubt it.

My hope is we don't waste our lives, but spend every moment we can in effective and productive pursuits.

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Well said Old Man Tree.

Halasían said:

Well said Old Man Tree.

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Perhaps so...and it may be dangerous to agree with me. But:
It also seems the ball was hit so far above the heads of the outfielders, the trajectory couldn't be calculated.
I don't recall ever speaking against 'legitimate criticism'.
I don't speak at all, when what I see is true criticism. Only when the soloist is singing a whole different song.
Then the choir starts chirping, off-key, and the music degenerates further.
Someday I'll learn.
For now, I just quit... probably to everyone's benefit.
Not sure what else I can expect anyway...and as we all know, every frustration comes from an unmet expectation, just as every disappointment comes from an unfulfilled hope.
No reason to set myself up.

Halasían said:

• Overall - 6/10.

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I'm a little surprised that the series is relatively poorly rated by you after you were such an ardent defender last year, almost like an extremist Amazon zealot or someone who is paid by Amazon. I would actually only give the series 2 out of 10, but due to the indirect entertainment value and the fire that the series has sparked on the internet, maybe even 6 like you? No, that would be an exaggeration, but since the announcement of the series motivated me to read everything about the 2nd Age in detail beforehand, I'll say: Well, okay, 4 or 5 points are mercifully justified Now, however, it would be important that the newly acquired Tolkien readers have recognized the discrepancy between the series and the books and accordingly read more and watch less nonsense on TV...

6/10 seems rather high given the low rating for story Halasían gave for the most important elements of any storytelling medium. The C and D+ given to plot and writing/dialogue, respectively, are relatively high in my estimation; both deserve a resounding F in my opinion. Still, to come out with an average of 6 out of 10, again seems rather generous and one borne out of the heart rather than the head.

Ent said:

And I would recommend a certain caution. Just because something exists in RoP that 'wasn't written in Tolkien's work(s)', doesn't make it 'inaccurate'. Tolkien simply didn't write about it at all. They are free to 'fill in the gaps' however they see fitting as Tolkien simply made no stipulation about those issues.

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Well, basically you're absolutely right.

But you seem to have either not watched the series at all with full attention or you don't know the books or only know them very inaccurately. Because when a series that refers to a certain author and certain books in terms of name and marketing not only interpolates very freely, but also quite obviously acts contrary to them, then the case is really very clear. In addition, there is of course the fact that the series, even if it were theoretically completely new and without reference to Tolkien, would be completely below average. Yes, I would even prefer the MTV version of The Shannara Chronicles 10 times over.
So you have to have read/watched both the books and the series only very superficially or in passing to come in with such a sweeping statement in this specific case.

Annatar said:

Well, basically you're absolutely right.

But you seem to have either not watched the series at all with full attention or you don't know the books or only know them very inaccurately. Because when a series that refers to a certain author and certain books in terms of name and marketing not only interpolates very freely, but also quite obviously acts contrary to them, then the case is really very clear. In addition, there is of course the fact that the series, even if it were theoretically completely new and without reference to Tolkien, would be completely below average. Yes, I would even prefer the MTV version of The Shannara Chronicles 10 times over.
So you have to have read/watched both the books and the series only very superficially or in passing to come in with such a sweeping statement in this specific case.

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I found The Shannara Chronicles season 1 unexpectedly entertaining and, in my opinion, far superior to the book (The Elfstones of Shannara) it's based on.

As far as the idea that RoP fills in any gaps left by Tolkien about the Second Age, that is simply untenable. The show outright contradicts Tolkien.

Radaghast said:

6/10 seems rather high given the low rating for story Halasían gave for the most important elements of any storytelling medium. The C and D+ given to plot and writing/dialogue, respectively, are relatively high in my estimation; both deserve a resounding F in my opinion. Still, to come out with an average of 6 out of 10, again seems rather generous and one borne out of the heart rather than the head.

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Exactly. From another thread in this sub-forum, Halasian seems to be a very big fan of Morfydd Clark, which will probably explain his bias... I don't find her unattractive either, but my heart still bleeds when I see how the "real" Galadriel is interpreted in this nasty piece of work and turned into an unsympathetic, selfish and sometimes evil character.

LaurelinBearsFruit said:

My biggest problem with ROP is the way that the creators have dealt with the criticisms and their wanton lack of knowledge of the Tolkien universe. They boil any criticisms down to racism and sexism and have been quoted as calling the Tolkien fandom (the people they are supposed to be getting on board with their show) "patently evil." Yes they actually said that.

That says it all for me. No thank you, goodbye.

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Yes exactly, that's the icing on the cake. It's unbelievable how brazen they are.
Apparently there is now even a Facebook account called "J. R. R. Tolkien" where they advertise the LotR books with Amazon covers.

https://www.facebook.com/officialtolkien/posts/pfbid0Bke8ipkGUMe15fm6HWd6jrbpnFTuBAaz9FHkXrnBhmKtcgE2DCh7jFF9muViTd7fl
So they pretend that Tolkien is still alive and promoting it himself.

😖😣😫🤮

Annatar said:

Yes exactly, that's the icing on the cake. It's unbelievable how brazen they are.
Apparently there is now even a Facebook account called "J. R. R. Tolkien" where they advertise the LotR books with Amazon covers.

https://www.facebook.com/officialtolkien/posts/pfbid0Bke8ipkGUMe15fm6HWd6jrbpnFTuBAaz9FHkXrnBhmKtcgE2DCh7jFF9muViTd7fl
So they pretend that Tolkien is still alive and promoting it himself.

😖😣😫🤮

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That page is managed by the publisher HarperCollins, apparently. And there is a post advertising books with RoP covers, among the many other things they sell.
But yes, just using the author's name as the page title is somewhat misleading.

JackTorrance said:

they should've been able to properly get it right, so this leaves me to two theories:
1. The screenwriters are clueless idiots who never bother to fact-check one thing about their lore.
2. Or even more likely, the screenwriters are aware of the various databases but choose to contradict Tolkien's world anyways because they can farm the resulting backlash and get in moneys...gotta get those moneys somehow, I guess,

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In the beginning Tom Shippey was included, but he was fired, probably because he had contradicted the script too often, and maybe that also had to do with the death of Christopher Tolkien; who knows...? Nobody can prove it, but the coincidences in time lead to a lot of speculation.

Server Room Gremlin said:

That page is managed by the publisher HarperCollins, apparently. And there is a post advertising books with RoP covers, among the many other things they sell.
But yes, just using the author's name as the page title is somewhat misleading.

View attachment 27834

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How dare they wear the identity of the man among the greatest authors of all time just to promote "Oh LoOk!!! CoOl cOvErS!!!!!" for a trilogy that has a thousand different covers.

Halasían said:

The thing that stood out is they love Tolkien, and they love Rings of Power. It isn't mutually exclusive

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If there really are people who claim that - which I don't believe - then they are liars who have never really read or understood Tolkien. You can really ignore them, which also corresponds to the statistics.
They're people like these bought, mega-embarrassing pseudo-super-fans:

Ent said:

that hatred

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Blah blah blah. No, it's not hate. I watch it with pleasure. It's just justified criticism.
Seriously: I would say that anyone who has any understanding of Tolkien's works must hate this series.
My recommendation: read Tolkien's books about the second age and think about them. It might help. The books are really the opposite of the series.

Annatar said:

I'm a little surprised that the series is relatively poorly rated by you after you were such an ardent defender last year

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I believe I took the position of giving the show a chance instead of rejecting it out of hand in February and continuing on with incessant vitriol for the next six months. Anyway, I called it as I saw it, like I did with PJ's LotR project. Have a Nice Day Anna.

This thread certainly isn’t a flame-war, as one might have encountered in the first age of the forum, so much as a cozy fire by which a weary ranger might warm his hands among fellow travelers. One might even have what others might call a misguided sentiment toward reading those elder heated “back-and-forths,” lively and passionate as they were—true mountain-trolls, now long archived and frozen in stone around a long-dead flame. They were—interesting. Lively, though some might call such things “Orc-work.” Someone should write a fan-fiction where such a term would be bandied about too much at the end of a speculative “4th age.” But the elder days are gone, and many of the fair (or foul) folk of that day have diminished.

We’re not all eloquent literature scholars or sophisticated critics. I like to see blue-collar people take a genuine interest with a rustic-but-honest statement here-and-there because they felt some deeply-human notion that perhaps, somehow the idea of perfect beauty was verbally marred. That a rough-mouthed dwarve should call out a high-spoken horse lord because Galadriel was slighted. And, with RoP, some might say she was. But dwarves aren’t trolls. And Gimli’s love for Galadriel isn’t orc-work. And calling out an erring horse lord isn’t orc-work.

Saruman began his labors, some say, in a petty mimicry of Sauron who, in turn, forged his kingdom in the mimicry of Morgoth, who, in turn built—or twisted—his kingdom in mimicry of the Valar.

Yes, perhaps PJ is Morgoth and RoP is Saruman, or who-you-may.

Tolkien’s work is to fantasy writing now like the Iliad was to Western Literature long ago. It is the groundwork. It is, almost and maybe, the medium out of which to write any contemporary fantasy. But it is also like Plato’s Republic in that it is an analogy for the human soul. We are all Boromir. We are all Samwise. We are all Frodo—or we strive to be what we deem good, one would hope.

And we all add our sound (or flailings) to the great creation song—either in harmony or against it. Some can hear a greater harmony of PJ’s work with that of Tolkien’s. RoP, methinks, sounds quite out-of-key in many more places, though it has appeals to beauty.

We all serve a greater song or a lesser song—even our own. Some would say there is a Great Song beyond all others. And, I would trespass, one cannot criticize or compare any work with another without calling down the doom of Morgoth upon one’s voice, like Turin named—and which song we aim to harmonize with revealed. We are each the erring servants of either truth or power.

Kolbitar said:

Saruman began his labors, some say, in a petty mimicry of Sauron who, in turn, forged his kingdom in the mimicry of Morgoth, who, in turn built—or twisted—his kingdom in mimicry of the Valar.

Yes, perhaps PJ is Morgoth and RoP is Saruman, or who-you-may.

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I'd say that Peter Jackson is Aule: somebody who loved and respected master's work (Tolkien / Illuvatar), but did not have the ability to truly bring it to screen.

Rings of Powers makers are Morgoth: they just hate Tolkien and want to see his work corrupted. Comparing them to Sauron is an insult to Sauron.

Guys, can we stop bickering and let Halasian be Halasian? Can we post some lore contradictions? PLEASE?
Ahhh never mind, the thread is confusing.

The thread is called 'Positive and Negative', so criticisms are to be expected. What vitriol is anyone spewing? Please show me one example. So far as I've seen, all criticism has been constructive. Even the show's most ardent defender here says he didn't like the story, yet is getting all indignant about other criticizing it. Makes zero sense.

And comparing ROP to PJ's films is a bit off as well. One can't criticize the films for the same reasons as ROP. It doesn't work.

Radaghast said:

The thread is called 'Positive and Negative', so criticisms are to be expected. What vitriol is anyone spewing? Please show me one example. So far as I've seen, all criticism has been constructive. Even the show's most ardent defender here says he didn't like the story, yet is getting all indignant about other criticizing it. Makes zero sense.

And comparing ROP to PJ's films is a bit off as well. One can't criticize the films for the same reasons as ROP. It doesn't work.

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What vitriol? Wel...Halasian being Halasian; plus some people advising others to stay out of here, and one making a football analogy.

JackTorrance said:

What vitriol? Wel...Halasian being Halasian; plus some people advising others to stay out of here, and one making a football analogy.

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I don't understand the reason for the facepalm.

JackTorrance said:

What vitriol? Wel...Halasian being Halasian; plus some people advising others to stay out of here, and one making a football analogy.

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I was using Halasían's own word, if that's what you're facepalming about. But go ahead. Keep using the facepalm emoji if it makes you feel good.