Rings of Power Season 2 Trailer

Ent at Large said:

Whatever happens with RoP Season 2, I can assure us all of this.
"The Universe will unfold as it should." (Spock - Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country.)
Or not.

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I wouldn't be so sure.

I think at least couple of supernova's in our galaxy are triggered by "the boats floats, while stone can not".
Even Universe has it's limits.

d4rk3lf said:

I wouldn't be so sure.

I think at least couple of supernova's in our galaxy are triggered by "the boats floats, while stone can not".
Even Universe has it's limits.

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Thank you for your kind efforts to keep me grounded and freed, in matters of mind, space, and events.
Being ever the optimist, if you don't mind, for the present I'll retain my perspective the universe will either unfold, or it won't.
Once I see proofs one way or the other, I'll adjust my pserspective of what the universe will do, as needed.

I appreciate your concern for my retention of flexibility in the mattter. 🙂

What if the universe is origami?

Squint-eyed Southerner said:

What if the universe is origami?

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I would have to conclude as parts of it unfold, other parts fold. Yet it is happening 'as it should.'
So... that would make me both wrong and right, and I'd be happy with that as well.
Perhaps I'm just always happy with things the way they are.
(Well, I confess.. not "always.")

Squint-eyed Southerner said:

What if the universe is origami?
View attachment 32880

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This thingy is probably a better approximation of the variable red supergiant Betelgeuse in the Orion constellation.
Its variable nature definitely rules out two of Douglas Adam's main "Hitchhiker" characters, Ford Prefect and Zaphod Beeblebrox, originating from planets around it. But "Hitchhiker" originated as a radio comedy program. More generally, you don't want to take your astrophysics and astronomy from the "Star {something}" set, especially not as far as asteroids go. Threading one's spaceship's way through boulders constantly knocking against each other has nothing to do with the asteroid belt. But I guess "threading" through objects on average 1,000,000 kilometers or 600,000 miles apart just doesn't fill cinema's obsession with thrills & spills.
Now Middle-earth does have plenty of stuff - beings, like Treebeard, the Elves, Dwarves, Balrogs, Wizards, Sauron, a volcano for which the latter has an on-off switch at least - that are, well, fantasy. But even a fantasy world has its own laws that all are bound to - when it's well-written. If there are characters and events that make little or no sense within the specific laws of that fantasy world - that's bad writing.

I really hope I eventually get to see this guy sinking some Numenorean ships. That rhino horn looks perfect for poking holes in hulls.

Eljorahir said:

I really hope I eventually get to see this guy sinking some Numenorean ships. That rhino horn looks perfect for poking holes in hulls.

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Numenorians from Rop, don't have ships, they have boats.
He could just burp, and flip them all.

WatcherWraith said:

Who's to say every event in The Silmarillion happened just as Tolkien wrote it?

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in my opinion, Tolkien (JRR) is to say stuff

And he basically said (at least at one point anyway) that not everything in The Silmarillion happened exactly as in the story as recorded. Nonetheless, it is "the story that is recorded" -- that is, I'd say: it's true that a Silmarillion was part of the "real" legendarium (it was surely intended to be, if not ultimately finished and published by the author), just as a poem about a troll baking bread for a Hobbit is truly part of the legendarium (published by Tolkien himself).

But the fact that Tolkien's legendarium contains various in-story authors does not, however, lead me to accept fan fiction as part of the legendarium.

I don't even agree with folks who mentally create their own legendariums by incorporating (certain of) Tolkien's own writings -- that is, in cases where it's arguably clear that a given text is simply an abandoned draft for a later version. In my opinion that's stepping on the art of world building, which includes deciding which parts of the legendarium should agree, and which parts should represent alternate takes on a given subject; or even which parts should remain somewhat hazy.

WatcherWraith said:

Why couldn't the TV show's plot have credence too?

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Depends upon what you mean by credence I guess, but one definition is: "acceptance as true or valid", and if you further mean to suggest that this story (ROP) should have parity with Tolkien's writings, again, as far as being a "true part of the legendarium". . . then I must strongly disagree.

Well, as strongly as I can at the moment, considering I'm getting pretty sleepy.

Generally speaking, fan-fiction is fine. And to my mind, this show is fan-fiction -- with lots of money behind it to bring it to TV screens, yes -- yet essentially, still fan fiction. And I think you could make the argument you're (seemingly) trying to make (Tolkien's world has various in-story writers that don't always agree, or always present the in-story truth, or always give certain clarity about a given thing) to give credence to any and all fan fiction -- whether it be great, or very not great, according to opinions.

That I shall not do. Tolkien is the sub-creator here, and not even Christopher Tolkien chose to take up that mantle (meaning, even where he invented parts of the Fall of Doriath for the 1977 Silmarillion, for a notable example, he later chose to publish, for Tolkien's readership, the real status of this chapter).

[snip of confusing stuff] I'm admittedly confused by now.

In any case, I must disagree with something you might be saying

I'm also very confused!

But I also completely agree with
whatever it was you just said. 😉

LOL SES!

Also, excellent use of small writing there

Squint-eyed Southerner said:

I'm also very confused!

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This just might be the best .gif I've ever seen.

Thank you both.

Now it's back to work.

Where was Gondor when @Squint-eyed Southerner cat was hidden in the books?

From the look on the cat's face, (worried or wary), I'd hazard a guess one of two things may be at hand:

1) - @Squint-eyed Southerner has entered the room, and the cat is worried he hasn't had any coffee yet, or;
2) - Squint has entered, obviously has coffee, but the cat is wary, not knowing if he's had enough to be approachable yet.

Elthir said:

And I think you could make the argument you're (seemingly) trying to make (Tolkien's world has various in-story writers that don't always agree, or always present the in-story truth, or always give certain clarity about a given thing) to give credence to any and all fan fiction -- whether it be great, or very not great, according to opinions.

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I did not intend for this meaning to get across at all. Amy and all fanfiction would not work, for a number of reasons which I am sure you are aware of. Not least of which is the extent of bad quality a great deal of fanfiction has and the contradictions it would present into the universe.

As for the TV show being an alternate universe, as one member has suggested, that idea works for me. I liked the show a lot and, having heard the writers actually did not have the rights needed for certain content, I think they're doing their best with what they've got. In any case, I mainly wanted the show to be less dismissed, as some seem won't to do(although I will admit I don't know how much thought went into their dismissal), and more considered. Many vices or faults seem to be dwelled upon, while any virtues the show had are either passed over or mentioned briefly. I know I am neither blind nor stupid, so what I'm seeing is there, at least some of it. But hardly anyone else(though there are a few) talks about it and it puzzles me.

This is my opinion. Whatever the truth of the matter may be, I do not claim to know it. I only advance my theories and opinions in hopes of interest.

Elthir said:

Nonetheless, it is "the story that is recorded" -- that is, I'd say: it's true that a Silmarillion was part of the "real" legendarium (it was surely intended to be, if not ultimately finished and published by the author), just as a poem about a troll baking bread for a Hobbit is truly part of the legendarium (published by Tolkien himself).

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I would like more clarification on what you meant here, as we know through our own world's history any recorded document from the far past(as the Silmarillion must have been), especially one translated and recopied and retranslated as this document was, we must take them with a grain of salt. Their writers do not always write as we do, use language the way we do, or even record events the same way. Whether or not Tolkien intended to include this as part of his world building, I don't know, but it seems to make sense as a line of thought. Following this reasoning, there are certain ways I can see how the show diverts from the text in ways we can be pretty sure did not happen as the text tells it(date differences, for example), but others where we can be less certain. I'd like to see what you think of this line of thought, when you have the time. :]

WatcherWraith said:

I did not intend for this meaning to get across at all. Amy and all fanfiction ( . . . )

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Thanks for the clarification. As I wrote earlier, I only thought you might be arguing that point, I wasn't really sure in the first place.

WatcherWraith said:

I would like more clarification on what you meant here, [snip for brevity] Their writers do not always write as we do, use language the way we do, or even record events the same way. Whether or not Tolkien intended to include this as part of his world building, I don't know, but it seems to make sense as a line of thought.

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Indeedy, in my opinion it's certain that Tolkien perceived (and wrote parts of) his Legendarium with these things in mind.

For a better example I should have used the tales [plural] of the fall of Numenor, rather than The Silmarillion, as the latter is "too unfinished" -- so when I wrote "a" Silmarillion above, I really meant "some hypothetical version" of The Silmarillion was intended to be part of the in-story Legendarium.

I'd say that that's not very controversial (not that anyone said it was), but I am on the world wide web, so who knows!



Of course I should add that neither Numenor tale -- neither the Akallabêth nor The Drowning of Anadûnê -- was published by JRRT himself, but here we have "more finished" versions of each, for comparison. But perhaps even better, as not all are familiar with both tales of Numenor's fall, how 'bout the following quote from Morgoth's Ring, from author's note 9 on the Commentary, Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth:

"Longer recensions of the Athrabeth, evidently edited under Numenorean influence, make her give, under pressure, a more precise answer. Some are very brief, some longer. All agree, however, in making the cause of disaster the acceptance by Men of Melkor as King (or King and God)."

[new paragraph made by me, not Tolkien]

"In one version a complete legend (compressed in timescale) is given explicitly as a Numenorean tradition, for it makes Andreth say [snip for brevity by Elthir] The legend bears certain resemblances to the Numenorean traditions concerning the part played by Sauron in the downfall of Numenor. But this does not prove that it is entirely a fiction of post-downfall days. It is no doubt mainly derived from actual lore of the People of Marach, quite independent of the Athrabeth." JRR Tolkien

Anyway, Tolkien goes on here, but you get the point.

And this is the art at work of course. Tolkien gives the reader what he [Tolkien] wants, withholding what he wants -- or he speaks very generally in "translator mode commentary" in light of what he's going to present as more of an in-story "story" (the Athrabeth itself, for example).

WatcherWraith said:

Following this reasoning, there are certain ways I can see how the show diverts from the text in ways we can be pretty sure did not happen as the text tells it (date differences, for example), but others where we can be less certain. I'd like to see what you think of this line of thought, when you have the time. :]

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With respect to your example here (for example): I understand why the timeline has been altered, as it compresses major events and major characters together for dramatic reasons. I get that; and my claws are hardly showing when I say that much.

But. . .

. . . but enough typing for me for now, in any case. Time for a snack!

Ent at Large said:

From the look on the cat's face, (worried or wary), I'd hazard a guess one of two things may be at hand:

1) - @Squint-eyed Southerner has entered the room, and the cat is worried he hasn't had any coffee yet, or;
2) - Squint has entered, obviously has coffee, but the cat is wary, not knowing if he's had enough to be approachable yet.

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3) - I'm well hidden. If it does not do its job and feed me now, I'm going to wait for it to turn its' back, then pounce, kill and eat..

Elthir said:

Thanks for the clarification. As I wrote earlier, I only thought you might be arguing that point, I wasn't really sure in the first place.



Indeedy, in my opinion it's certain that Tolkien perceived (and wrote parts of) his Legendarium with these things in mind.

For a better example I should have used the tales [plural] of the fall of Numenor, rather than The Silmarillion, as the latter is "too unfinished" -- so when I wrote "a" Silmarillion above, I really meant "some hypothetical version" of The Silmarillion was intended to be part of the in-story Legendarium.

I'd say that that's not very controversial (not that anyone said it was), but I am on the world wide web, so who knows!



Of course I should add that neither Numenor tale -- neither the Akallabêth nor The Drowning of Anadûnê -- was published by JRRT himself, but here we have "more finished" versions of each, for comparison. But perhaps even better, as not all are familiar with both tales of Numenor's fall, how 'bout the following quote from Morgoth's Ring, from author's note 9 on the Commentary, Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth:

"Longer recensions of the Athrabeth, evidently edited under Numenorean influence, make her give, under pressure, a more precise answer. Some are very brief, some longer. All agree, however, in making the cause of disaster the acceptance by Men of Melkor as King (or King and God)."

[new paragraph made by me, not Tolkien]

"In one version a complete legend (compressed in timescale) is given explicitly as a Numenorean tradition, for it makes Andreth say [snip for brevity by Elthir] The legend bears certain resemblances to the Numenorean traditions concerning the part played by Sauron in the downfall of Numenor. But this does not prove that it is entirely a fiction of post-downfall days. It is no doubt mainly derived from actual lore of the People of Marach, quite independent of the Athrabeth." JRR Tolkien

Anyway, Tolkien goes on here, but you get the point.

And this is the art at work of course. Tolkien gives the reader what he [Tolkien] wants, withholding what he wants -- or he speaks very generally in "translator mode commentary" in light of what he's going to present as more of an in-story "story" (the Athrabeth itself, for example).



With respect to your example here (for example): I understand why the timeline has been altered, as it compresses major events and major characters together for dramatic reasons. I get that; and my claws are hardly showing when I say that much.

But. . .

. . . but enough typing for me for now, in any case. Time for a snack!

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Thank you for your response. I believe I understand what you were saying a bit better now.

Trailer looks ok, I will give them the benefit of the doubt here. I hope they understand the downfalls of S1 and have worked hard to meet the expectations of those who criticised it so heavily… I shall be watching with great enthusiasm.

I am still looking forward seeing Melkorndil sings something like:

Hey! Come derry Troll!
Hop along, my silmies!
Wargs! Orcs all!
We are fond of parties.
Now let the war begin!
Let us sing together!