Rings of Power Stuff

[d4rk3lf]

Oh...like Star Wars storm trooper armour?

No, I was joking because cops like donuts.

 

[Tar-Elenion]

What is "donut armour" ?

Armour (or heavier, more complete) on your extremities (arms and legs) but not on your body (or lighter, less complete).
Donuts have a hole in the middle...

 

[Deimos]

No, I was joking because cops like donuts.

After thinking for a minute (when you first answered) I thought it made sense because cops really do hang out the donut shops.
(Verrrrrry clever, my friend 😉)
In fact, (pax to Tar-Elenion) I like it better than the real explanation. 😄

 

[Aldarion]

What is "donut armour" ?

Basically, an armor where extremities receive better protection than actually more important areas of the body. Good example is Pevensie armor from Narnia:

You will notice that he has his shoulders, forearms and lower legs protected by fairly heavy plate armor (and also has helmet in battle), yet his torso, upper arms and upper legs - all areas far more important and vulnerable than the lower extremities - are protected only by mail.

So, donut armor. Heavy on the outside, hollow in the middle - much like a donut.

 

[Deimos]

Basically, an armor where extremities receive better protection than actually more important areas of the body. Good example is Pevensie armor from Narnia:

You will notice that he has his shoulders, forearms and lower legs protected by fairly heavy plate armor (and also has helmet in battle), yet his torso, upper arms and upper legs - all areas far more important and vulnerable than the lower extremities - are protected only by mail.

So, donut armor. Heavy on the outside, hollow in the middle - much like a donut.

Ummmm..... yeah... well, you forgot the "coolness factor".
If it's cool enough looking it doesn't matter if you're vulnerable or not!
I mean, look at Brad Pitt in Troy. He was a ....a.... a reverse donut! And was he not cool?
And Gerard Butler in 300... He was an almost naked donut! (But a cool naked donut)

 

[Vorondil]

And even before usage of gauntlets, some form of hand protection was often used – be it mail mittens or muffs, or just leather gloves. Fact is that hands are fairly vulnerable part of body – a cut that would be “merely” painful somewhere else could easily result in loss of fingers.

This is true, I do some sword-fighting and it is the most common place to be whacked (it is very painful).

 

[Ent]

If Ent isn't mistaken, (and trust him he could be), "donut armor" was more frequent in the days of the heavier, longer broadsword, where hacking and chopping rather than stabbing were more the rule of the day. So arms, legs, etc. were more the target than the torso. (Though of course, stabbing was done at times.)

But as swords became lighter, quicker and more directed, the torso became more important to protect.

Later of course, even the long swords and short swords started to be replaced by the rapiers and foils, which were even quicker.

But again, this could all be a figment of Ent's wooden imagination.

 

[Vorondil]

If Ent isn't mistaken, (and trust him he could be), "donut armor" was more frequent in the days of the heavier, longer broadsword, where hacking and chopping rather than stabbing were more the rule of the day. So arms, legs, etc. were more the target than the torso. (Though of course, stabbing was done at times.)

But as swords became lighter, quicker and more directed, the torso became more important to protect.

Later of course, even the long swords and short swords started to be replaced by the rapiers and foils, which were even quicker.

But again, this could all be a figment of Ent's wooden imagination.

That does make sense.

 

[Elthir]

 

[Squint-eyed Southerner]

Interesting helmet.

 

[Aldarion]

If Ent isn't mistaken, (and trust him he could be), "donut armor" was more frequent in the days of the heavier, longer broadsword, where hacking and chopping rather than stabbing were more the rule of the day. So arms, legs, etc. were more the target than the torso. (Though of course, stabbing was done at times.)

But as swords became lighter, quicker and more directed, the torso became more important to protect.

Later of course, even the long swords and short swords started to be replaced by the rapiers and foils, which were even quicker.

But again, this could all be a figment of Ent's wooden imagination.

That does make sense.

No, it doesn't. In fact, reality is the exact opposite of what End has described. Donut armor never was a thing. And for a good reason. From the same blog:

Private Site

Armor is supposed to keep person alive. Because of this, there is logic in what it protects and doesn’t. These principles are visible in armor from antiquity until modernity. Specifically, this reflects the set of priorities in armoring the body that are consistent over time and space. While ACOUP states that this holds true “prior to the advent of gunpowder”, this qualification is actually incorrect – same concerns existed for entirety of human history, both before and after the advent of gunpowder. Only thing that differed was technonogical and practical ability to fulfill the requirements.

Tier I – High Priority​

This covers the areas that are “must haves” for armor, the areas where any injury is likely to be fatal. Specifically, the head and the torso, both of which contain vital organs.

Tier IA – Very High Priority – Head​

While the above may imply that head and torso armor come in a package, this is not actually true. Be it antiquity or modernity, head has received clear priority over the torso. While brain is protected by the skull, there is no muscle beyond the bone, and brain itself is a very sensitive organ. Consequently, head is very vulnerable to damage, especially the blunt force trauma. What this means is that cranial protection was the first on the list when considering any sort of protection.

In fact, soldiers tended to prioritize metal head protection over any kind of body protection, even though textile armor was much cheaper than metal helmet. Helmets were among the last armor to be abandoned with advancements in gunpowder, and the first armor to return – though nature of trench warfare may have played some role in that as well.

Tier IB – High Priority​

Torso is next in terms of priority. It contains all the vital organs that are not brain, as well as a mess of important veins and arteries. When it comes to torso itself, chest usually takes priority over the belly – both because it contains more crucial organs, and because it is easier to armor due to not being so flexible. There are exceptions to this – some armors preferred providing plate protection to belly over the chest, but in general, rigid defences tended to first appear in the chest area. Body armor also tended to cover the front of the body first, with back being covered later.

This armor also covered the chest and the belly, but not the hips or thighs. Greek and Roman muscle cuirass, Greek linothorax and Roman lorica segmentata all terminate at the natural waist (narrow region just above the hips), with protection for lower torso and upper thighs being provided by a sort of a hanging skirt. Early medieval plate cuirass also terminated at waist. Poor Romans in the early Republic would wear a helmet, a shield, and a pectoral – a metal plate covering the chest right above the heart – but nothing else.

There are several reasons for this. Hips and upper thighs are much more difficult to armor without impeding mobility (in fact, anything below the ribcage is difficult to armor without impeding mobility to at least some degree). Hips also contain a lot of bone and less vital organs. Nature of melee combat also means that greatest threat is always to the head and the chest, as short weapons struggle to hit targets lower at the body. Even with longer weapons, such as spear which has no trouble reaching hips or thighs, attacks there are less likely.

Tier II​

Second tier defenses are basically extension of the first tier defenses. They cover hips, upper thighs and shoulders. All three areas are also tempting targets: they are not much more mobile than torso itself, and still have high potential of disabling the target. They are also difficult to armor as they contain the joints whose mobility simply cannot be restricted.

Ancient armor that had rigid protection only for the chest still did what it could to protect these areas as well. This was often done by attaching pteruges – hanging strips of leather attached to armor. Mail armor – lorica hamata – extended the mail skirt down to knees, and added second layer of mail to protect shoulders from downward attacks. Similarly, European almain rivet – mass-produced plate armor for pikemen – typically consisted of a helmet, breastplate, and tier II defences – shoulder protection (pauldrons), hip protection (fauld) and thigh protection (tassets).

Historically, one never sees Tier II protection without full set of Tier I protection. But fantasy often opts for so-called “doughnut” armor, where person has plate limb defences, but only mail or non-rigid textile armor for torso. This is likely a consequence of interpreting pictoral evidence such as funeral effigies, where torso plate is often covered by textile (whether by a surcoat or by a jupon), or else torso armor is a brigandine or other sort of semi-rigid body defense where metal protection is underneath textile or leather fronting. These can often make it seem like soldier is wearing plate limb defences and only non-rigid torso armor, but it should be repeated – this was never really the case.

Tier III​

Third tier armor is the least important, but not necessarily the most rare. In fact, lower leg and shin protection is seen just as often, and sometimes more often, than some elements of the Tier II protection.

Reason for this is the shield. Shields rarely cover the lower part of the leg, which besides has to be forward for balance. This makes lower leg a tempting target, and greaves are a common defense for Greek and Roman soldiers, and appear quickly in Middle Ages as well (mid-13th century, whereas plate cuirass appears only in mid-14th century). For comparison, soldiers who often fought under protection of large pavises often had no leg protection at all.

Legs and arms, requiring significant mobility yet being difficult to hit, were some of the last areas of body to be armored. Even lower priority was given to feet and hands, for similar reasons – even when long-sleeved mail was widespread, it took time for hand protection to appear.

It is correct that arms and legs were more often of a target than the torso was in the days of broadsword. And the reason for that is simple: torso was armored, and broadsword cannot cut through mail. That's it. Otherwise, arms and legs are far more difficult to hit than torso is, because they are smaller and more mobile targets.

 

[Maedhros_Nelyafinwë]

Oh no, the drawing I'm working on might have donut armor! 😬 The only plate armor it has is metal bracers and pauldrons. Oh well, it looks cool.

In all fairness, it does have mail covering the chest and torso, but there is a velvet tunic covering most of the mail so you can't see it. And my understanding is that mail is pretty protective and pretty much nothing can get through it.

 

[Ent]

So we're back to donut armor is used for actors, to provide them the ability to look good while still sporting attractive attire.
Nice.

 

[Deimos]

Oh no, the drawing I'm working on might have donut armor! 😬 The only plate armor it has is metal bracers and pauldrons. Oh well, it looks cool.

In all fairness, it does have mail covering the chest and torso, but there is a velvet tunic covering most of the mail so you can't see it. And my understanding is that mail is pretty protective and pretty much nothing can get through it.

In the realm of fantasy armour, my friend, that is the only thing that matters....that it look cool. 😉
(With apologies to Sheldon TBBT) "Arma mea, regulae meae."

 

[Vorondil]

arms and legs are far more difficult to hit than torso is

This is wrong from my experience.

 

[Ent]

Perhaps with rapier or foil, but not with broadsword or longsword. Short sword is a 'split decision' for Ent.

Rapier/foil are specifically made for 'thrusting' rather than 'hacking'. They brought a form of refinement and gentlemanliness to the sport of killing.

Broad and Long swords were basically just bludgeons with a finer edge, improving the ability to maim more efficiently. .

 

[Olorgando]

In the realm of fantasy armour, my friend, that is the only thing that matters....that it look cool. 😉

That can cause a problem at the other end of the scale (in films), so to speak.
In my EE of BoFA, it's on DVD 4 of 5, section "The Appendices Part 11 - continued", chapter 9 "Out from the Gate - Erebor Pickups", between about 3:55 and 8:00 minutes. Yes, they gave Thorin and his twelve companions some fantastic-looking armor ... which left them with the "nimbleness" of a giant Galapagos tortoise. It was discarded for the action scenes as totally impractical.

 

[Aldarion]

This is wrong from my experience.

For legs maybe, but keep in mind that arms not only move constantly, but also tend to hold annoying things such as swords and shields.

 

[Tar-Elenion]

Shields get in the way of body strikes as well. And generally speaking in medieval combat, until the later period, a shield would be used. Targeting the legs (when not using shields) can be dangerous, as it leaves the head vulnerable to attack in a quicker time.
In addition, swords (medieval swords) and rapiers are all in the same general weight range of about two to four pounds (long swords (intended for use in two hands) towards the heavier end). Rapiers tended to be a little heavier than one handed swords.

Are rapiers light and fast?

this can be a tricky question

www.arms-n-armor.com

https://www.thearma.org/essays/weights.htm#.ZD3BpHbMKiQ

Arms and Armor—Common Misconceptions and Frequently Asked Questions - The Metropolitan Museum of Art

The field of arms and armor is beset with romantic legends, gory myths, and widely held misconceptions. Most of them are utter nonsense, devoid of any historical base.

www.metmuseum.org

Swords were well designed weapons used with skill, technique and finesse (as fully developed as any Japanese martial art). Not clumsy bashing implements.

 

[Deimos]

That can cause a problem at the other end of the scale (in films), so to speak.
In my EE of BoFA, it's on DVD 4 of 5, section "The Appendices Part 11 - continued", chapter 9 "Out from the Gate - Erebor Pickups", between about 3:55 and 8:00 minutes. Yes, they gave Thorin and his twelve companions some fantastic-looking armor ... which left them with the "nimbleness" of a giant Galapagos tortoise. It was discarded for the action scenes as totally impractical.

My reply to Maedhros was said with my tongue not too far from my cheek. 😉
I'm very glad that the prop-master for PJ's LOTR took pains to get some (most?) things right.
(As for the three Hobbit movies...I think that even the Void would reject having them🙄)
With respect to Maedhros designing armour... if he is a prop master for a movie...well, it's still his call.
But I think he is doing this for himself, therefore "Sheldon's rule" is still appropriate (imo)., if one is OK with "cool" trumping functionality/practicality.