👁️Sauron and Durin's Bane Were Best Buddies

Mirror mirror on the wall;
Who's the greatest Elf of all?
Doesn't matter what Tolkien said;
face a Balrog and they're all dead. :*p


Bard:

You say that Olorin wasn't that powerful a Maia...

Tis' true.

But....
:*D

Are you saying that a mere Elf, no matter how strong is more powerful?

Gandalf tells Gimli that he is dangerous, more dangerous than anything he will come up against unless he is brought before the Dark Lord himself. Yes, I realize this is Gandalf the White, but still. Plus, The Letters say something I'll have to try to dig up..

And on the topic of Maiar strength, I'll keep hammering this one home until it sinks in:

Myths Transformed VIII:

'Melkor corrupted many spirits - some great, as Sauron; or LESS SO, as Balrogs.'

So, if Olorin was a 'lesser' Maia, so were the Balrogs...

I know folks don't like it, but there it is, page 410, HoME Volume 10.

and, the Istari's strength was 'veiled', not gone.

Okay. But other elves actually are recorded slaying Balrogs. One actually took out the greatest Balrog, so is he greater than Gandalf? They both died, but both took out their opponent. Ecthelion's enemy was greater than Gandalf's.

Your Maiar strength point helps, well if anyone, me. The Balrogs were of lesser power, therefore easier to defeat than say Sauron.

Gandalf also wasn't that great in magical power or might (great in Middle-Earth certainly, but in comparison to the other Maiar no). His strength was wisdom.

I mean look, the Witch-King breaks his staff and defeats him at Minas Tirith (kidding of course. Another brutal error that makes me want to strangle PJ). But seriously, at the encounter at the gate Gandalf THE WHITE seems in a stalemate at least, if not beaten. He fell silent, and was only roused by Pippin. And this was simply due to a mere man-turned-wraith.

I agree the Istari's power was veiled. But also forbidden was direct displays of power.

If this old wizard, who can be given a battle (possibly lose) by a man-turned-wraith, can defeat a Balrog, then what might the mightiest and most skilled elf do? Even if he is attacked by 4 Balrogs. Let me list the facts.

- Feanor is the mightiest and most skilled elf ever
- Gandalf THE GREY defeated a Balrog
- Gandalf THE GREY is not that strong
- Gandalf THE WHITE is more powerful and dangerous than Gandalf THE GREY
- Gandalf THE WHITE was silenced by the Witch-King
- Ecthelion defeated Gothmog
- By this logic, Ecthelion is certainly greater than Gandalf THE GREY at least (took out tougher opponent, same result)
- Feanor is great than Ecthelion
- Feanor fought on long and undismayed
- The Balrogs would have been less than Gothmog

So, it would appear well within reason that Feanor could have killed a Balrog in that famous battle.

Perhaps. But I think it might be describing the virtues of the individual, rather than their physical attributes. Feanor was not an admirable character. Maybe Fingolfin is the most valiant because he was noble too.

Click to expand...

I don't think he was just talking about virtues as who that person was but it also had to do with physical virtues. Fingolfin challened Morgoth himself so when Tolkien said he was the strongest, this proves it for me right there. As the text states, Morgoth was afraid of the duel:

"Fingolfin beheld, as it seemed to him, the utter ruin of his people, and the defeat beyond redress of all their houses. Therefore he did his silver arms and took his white helm and his sword Ringil and his blue shield set with a star of crystal, and mounting upon Rochallor he rode alone to Angband’s gate and challenged Morgoth to come forth and Morgoth came though he was afraid of the duel. Now Morgoth swung his hammer Grond down like a bolt of thunder but each time Fingolfin leaped away and seven times he wounded Morgoth with Ringil, but at last Fingolfin grew weary and Morgoth bore down his shield upon him, three times was Fingolfin crushed to his knees and three times he got up again but the last time he stumbled and fell backwards and Morgoth set his foot upon Fingolfin’s neck and there the High-King of Elves died but with his last strength he stroke Ringil into the foot of Morgoth.”

Click to expand...

Look, it clearly states in the Silmarillion, that Feanor was the mightiest. Period. That says it for me.

Bard the Bowman said:

Look, it clearly states in the Silmarillion, that Feanor was the mightiest. Period. That says it for me.

Click to expand...

Not a very convincing argument to me...

Hmmm. So if the author states that someone was the mightiest, that doesn't convince you he was the mightiest? Wow, great reasoning there.

Being valiant doesn't mean you're the strongest or mightiest. It just means you're the most courageous.

Bard the Bowman said:

Hmmm. So if the author states that someone was the mightiest, that doesn't convince you he was the mightiest? Wow, great reasoning there.

Being valiant doesn't mean you're the strongest or mightiest. It just means you're the most courageous.

Click to expand...

Well the quote above doesn't say JUST the most valient of Fingolfin, it also says the strongest, so no, your argument doesn't convince me.

Fingolfin was the strongest, the most steadfast, and the most valiant

Click to expand...

If Pippin can kill a troll, simple comparative mightytude isn't always the main issue on the battlefield in any case. And incidentally, Glorfindel really won his battle without being slain... ah, in a sense [cough]... as the Balrog only grabbed Glorfindel by his hair on the way down, 'killing' him.

Cheater!

Glorfindel was way ahead at that point! See the long prose Fall of Gondolin in The Book of Lost Tales.






Of course, that wasn't a Maia-type!


Never mind then :*D

Galin I don't really think it matters how someone is killed. If they are killed, they are killed. You could make the same case against Turin.

"Well Glaurung had him in a fair fight. Turin only killed him because Glaurung didn't know he was there blah blah blah blah."

Don't forget, it was a troll chieftan that Pippin killed, and the only reason I can swallow that is because Tolkien explicitly stated it.

Actually, thanks for bringing up the Glorfindel point Galin. It supports my claim even more. Glorfindel had the edge in the fight. And if Glorfindel, although undoubtedly mighty, can beat a Balrog and almost survive, what might Feanor do? But again, I personally think a kill is a kill, on the battlefield.

markoffc, it is you who are taking the terms too definitely. Mightiest is far clearer than "strongest".

Bard the Bowman said:

Okay. But other elves actually are recorded slaying Balrogs. One actually took out the greatest Balrog, so is he greater than Gandalf? They both died, but both took out their opponent. Ecthelion's enemy was greater than Gandalf's.

Your Maiar strength point helps, well if anyone, me. The Balrogs were of lesser power, therefore easier to defeat than say Sauron.

Gandalf also wasn't that great in magical power or might (great in Middle-Earth certainly, but in comparison to the other Maiar no). His strength was wisdom.

I mean look, the Witch-King breaks his staff and defeats him at Minas Tirith (kidding of course. Another brutal error that makes me want to strangle PJ). But seriously, at the encounter at the gate Gandalf THE WHITE seems in a stalemate at least, if not beaten. He fell silent, and was only roused by Pippin. And this was simply due to a mere man-turned-wraith.

I agree the Istari's power was veiled. But also forbidden was direct displays of power.

If this old wizard, who can be given a battle (possibly lose) by a man-turned-wraith, can defeat a Balrog, then what might the mightiest and most skilled elf do? Even if he is attacked by 4 Balrogs. Let me list the facts.

- Feanor is the mightiest and most skilled elf ever
- Gandalf THE GREY defeated a Balrog
- Gandalf THE GREY is not that strong
- Gandalf THE WHITE is more powerful and dangerous than Gandalf THE GREY
- Gandalf THE WHITE was silenced by the Witch-King
- Ecthelion defeated Gothmog
- By this logic, Ecthelion is certainly greater than Gandalf THE GREY at least (took out tougher opponent, same result)
- Feanor is great than Ecthelion
- Feanor fought on long and undismayed
- The Balrogs would have been less than Gothmog

So, it would appear well within reason that Feanor could have killed a Balrog in that famous battle.

Click to expand...

Okay, here we go...

Point one. If you actually read the account of Gandalf versus the Lord of the Nazgul (never once referred to as the Witch-king of Angmar in the 6 books, BTW, but whatever, we all know him by that) it NEVER, EVER gives ANY idea of weakness on Gandalf's behalf. This is simply ingrained in folk's mind due to:

1. PJ's absurd 'breaking of the staff scene' in the EE's and

2. Denethor's taunting of Gandalf several days earlier in the council with Faramir.

go ahead, reread it; I just did...

In fact, if anything, Gandalf gets right in his face, ready for a showdown!

Point two on Gandalf versus the Witch-king...

I searched & I searched, but aside from rereading the entire TLOR, I cannot find the quote ~ perhaps Galin can... ;*)

It's rather obscure, but says, at the approach of the War of the Ring:

Sauron lent His greatest servant (however it's phrased) great power.. He was only a shadow of the might he had become.' (very paraphrased)
This has led to threads that theorized that W-k might've had his one of the Nine Rings back on his finger.......

Point being in any case, W-k had become much more powerful at the time of his confrontation with Gandalf at the Gate.

So, your whole line of logic here falls apart because Gandalf was never silenced by The Witch-king in the first place...

In the second, we cannot even say that Gothmog had any significant more power than any other Balrog. He was 'Lord of Balrogs', but somebody had to have the job. Just as Thorin was Lord of the House of Durin. Did that make him a better Dwarf? Hardly.

Chances are he was slightly more powerful, but he's still of the same 'house' or 'family' of spiritual beings', so it's most likely not that significant an upgrade. Certainly, Gothmog was much closer to the other Balrogs in spiritual stature than to Sauron for example.....

I think the point you're avoiding, Bard is in every case, which is a 100% sampling, the best case scenario is a one versus one confrontation ending in a double death...

Are we supposed to believe that Feanor is so extra-special great that he alone can not only take on multiple Balrogs and hold them off for hours, but slay one?

I think the holding off multiple Balrogs alone for possible hours is a fairly fantastic feat in & of itself.

But, this & the fact we've established that there were likely only 7 Balrogs at this time leaves very little likelihood that Feanor offed any himself.

PJ's staff breaking was a joke Bucky. I know it didn't actually happen.

But you remember at the gate where flames run down the blade of the Witch-King's sword? And it states Gandalf remained motionless and said nothing. And Pippin called out and Gandalf stirred, as if out of a trance. This to me says that Gandalf was affected in some way. Matched at least.

Gandalf himself admitted he "may" be overmatched. I understand he may have just been agreeing with Denethor to avoid conflict, so I don't assign any value to this point.

I agree with you 100% that the Witch-King was more powerful at the Gate than earlier. I do not believe that he obtained his ring. I think it was just being closer to Mordor and the Shadow and Sauron. After all, it is stated that they are weaker the further away they are from their master. Example. Gandalf is more powerful than all Nine in daylight when they met at Weathertop. And was giving a good account of himself at night. So they were much weaker the further away from Sauron they are.

Witch-King of Angmar in the six books? Perhaps not, but very close. Most of the time he's referred to as the Black Captain or Lord of the Nazgul, but Gandalf says "King of Angmar long ago". Boom.

Sauron giving the Witch-King great power doesn't mean anything, even if it is a ring. Gandalf had Narya. They both had external factors.

Gothmog was clearly the greatest Balrog. I'm sorry, but spots are not picked at random just because someone has to be it. Sauron was the Lieutenant because he was Melkor's greatest servant. Gothmog was referred to three times (the three times I found his name) as Lord of the Balrogs, and once as High Captain of Angband. I think no one has any doubt that Gothmog was the greatest challenge of any Balrog. However, this is also irrelevant, and would have no bearing on my argument.

I am not avoiding any point. I always answer points. I never ignore them like others do. However, we are talking about Feanor here. We only have one instance where Feanor encounters a Balrog(s) in combat, and I think we all agree he performed pretty impressively. You said so yourself.

But, to hold off 4, maybe 5 Balrogs off for a long period of time, how could he do that? Were they tormenting him? Or did he kill 1, maybe 2?

Look, all I'm trying to say is that he certainly was capable of killing one, even when fighting several. This is Feanor, the "Spirit of Fire", greater than any Elf that ever lived. Galadriel was second.

I understand why you reject this idea so vigorously. It's not because you think Feanor is incapable of such a feat. It's because if this were the case, it would absolutely rip your "7 Balrogs" theory to shreds.

It's not my theory on 7 Balrogs, Bard...

It was tolkien's final thought on the subject.

And, Sauron wasn't necessarily Morgoth's greatest servant, he was the greatest servant with a name

I've got to find that quote.

I don't think that Sauron gave W-k the ring either; it's was just a theory...

I know the quote says something about 'lending him power' or something like that.

I'm not sure if the thread was posted on this site or another though. :*rolleyes:

Whatever Bucky. Whether or not Sauron was the greatest servant is irrelevant.

And the 3-7 quote is not from the final draft of the Silmarillion, which seems to contradict it with its description of the War of Wrath.

P.S. Feanor also had some of his companions with him. It says few, but still some. They could have served as a distraction.

Bard the Bowman said:

Actually, thanks for bringing up the Glorfindel point Galin. It supports my claim even more. Glorfindel had the edge in the fight. And if Glorfindel, although undoubtedly mighty, can beat a Balrog and almost survive, what might Feanor do? But again, I personally think a kill is a kill, on the battlefield.

Click to expand...

This post from me was a bit tongue-in-cheek actually -- but the end has a bit of a point to it anyway: Tolkien never described this battle in any detail after the Balrogs had become Maiar.

This was a battle between an Elf and an old-conception Balrog, from the same story where Tuor slayed or slewed more than one Balrog himself, for example.

And the 3-7 quote is not from the final draft of the Silmarillion, which seems to contradict it with its description of the War of Wrath.

Click to expand...

Bard, there's no final draft of Quenta Silmarillion. It has been pointed out that the War of Wrath description dates from the mid to later 1930s -- it survives within a chapter that was never again truly revised or updated by JRRT himself, according to Christopher Tolkien (again, outside of a few cursory corrections).

Behind the statement 'save some few' we find the old conception of Balrogs once again: very many, created by Morgoth (not Maiar).


However the marginal note (and the revision to the text upon which it was written) concerning the drastic reduction in Balrog numbers (3 at most 7) is dated as not earlier than the later 1950s, around 1958-ish or later.

Bard the Bowman said:

(...) This is Feanor, the "Spirit of Fire", greater than any Elf that ever lived. Galadriel was second.

Click to expand...

Concerning the term 'great' there's a rather late note with JRRT using the word -- in author's note (note 14) to The Shibboleth of Feanor:

'These two kinsfolk, the greatest of the Eldar of Valinor,* were unfriends for ever.'

*Who together with the greatest of all the Eldar, Luthien Tinuviel, daughter of Elu Thingol, are the chief matter of the legends and histories of the Elves.

The nightingale! The two kinsfolk above are Feanor and Galadriel.

Click to expand...

And an even later statement (about as late as it gets), with Christopher Tolkien paraphrasing a late adumbrated note: '... set down in the last month of his life. In this he emphasized the commanding stature of Galadriel already in Valinor, the equal if unlike endowments of Feanor.'



Thus Galadriel probably slew 3 Balrogs, or at most 7, before visiting Doriath ;*)

You know, I have a $65 book that goes chapter by chapter through the Silm & will tell you where every single passage was dug up from out of each various text Tolkien wrote?

...has a chart for every chapter. I should dig it up.

Basically, the author just analizes The Simarillion & breaks it down so HoME isn't quite such a disaster & is only a in a semi-coherent, lesser mess IMHO. :*confused:

Honestly, he takes every passage in The Simarillion & breaks down where the source came from.

It's amazing. Sometimes a single sentence or two is a hybrid of 3-4 sources. :*rolleyes:

So, it's really even tough to say anything in The Silm is 'canon', as JRR Tolkien did not actually write it; Plus, his son has expressed regrets about certain of handlings of 'filling in the gaps' but rather, a studious look at HoME would be moreso & especially what Tolkien's views were as he got to volumes 10-12.

Bucky said:

You know, I have a $65 book that goes chapter by chapter through the Silm & will tell you where every single passage was dug up from out of each various text Tolkien wrote?

...has a chart for every chapter. I should dig it up.

Click to expand...

I have Arda Reconstructed as well, but technically it doesn't detail everything, although it's quite thorough. Interestingly, Chistopher Tolkien himself explained* to the author (before seeing the revised version of this book however) that he did not record every authorial change in The History of Middle-Earth alone. In other words, as long and as detailed as HME is, Christopher Tolkien's (personal) History of the Silmarillion is even more detailed.


I do not agree with all of the opinions given by the author of Arda Reconstructed, which is generally a separate matter from the sourcing of passages however. I usually do my own sourcing if I have the time anyway; as helpful as AR might be in this area, for myself I would rather consult the actual texts in HME.

__________

*despite this, it should be noted that no version of this book was approved by the Tolkien Estate, nor did Christopher Tolkien provide help in its construction or publication. The author of AR avoided copyright concerns (seemingly) with the percentage of quotations used.

Bucky said:

Sauron lent His greatest servant (however it's phrased) great power.. He was only a shadow of the might he had become.' (very paraphrased)
This has led to threads that theorized that W-k might've had his one of the Nine Rings back on his finger.......

Click to expand...

I thought the Nazgul were unable to remove their Rings? :*confused:

In any case, I dimly recall the bit you're talking about. Though it should be clear at this point that my understanding of the books is pretty idiosyncratic, I always understood it to mean that Sauron had somehow invested the Witch King with his own power, without any transfer of rings going on.

Bard the Bowman said:

But, to hold off 4, maybe 5 Balrogs off for a long period of time, how could he do that? Were they tormenting him? Or did he kill 1, maybe 2?

Click to expand...

As a fencer, I can tell you exactly how a humanoid armed with sword and shield would do such a thing:

1) dodge
2) parry & wrist-flick

Blocking a direct blow from a flaming giant with your shield would probably break your arm, so the shield would only be useful to divert glancing blows and to cover your flank. The idea in an epee or saber bout where you are completely overmatched by the strength and reach of your opponent is to keep at the outside of your enemy' reach and force them to fully extend to strike you; this gives you an opportunity to parry and riposte to their wrist or extended forearm. (In foil, all you need do is parry and riposte with a lunge, but foil is way artificial and alien compared to any real fight.)

When outnumbered, the battle would consist of a constant giving of ground to avoid encirclement. Basically you'd be hoping that you'd tire out your opponents before you yourself became exhausted.

Bucky said:

Basically, the author just analizes The Simarillion & breaks it down so HoME isn't quite such a disaster & is only a in a semi-coherent, lesser mess IMHO.

Click to expand...

Ha.

Galin:

I did not know CT had written a 'History of the Silmarillion'

Honestly, I only knew about CoH because my daughters saw it at the bookstare & got it for me for my birthday....

Is it a highly chopped up
& footnoted?

And, I agree with you on Arda Reconstructed as far as the opinions? Is it a commentary or just a 'dissection of the construction of the book'?

I guess part both....

Troll:

On the Nazgul & their Rings:
They are in thw Wraith world; slaves to Saron now ~ I guss Bard might call them 'Maiar;' ~ and in a sense, they are the least of that spiritual being now (that would take a long discourse to lay out with my typing skills, so just trust me).

At the point they entered the wraith world, I believe ~ and this is all just hitting me now ~ I believe they no longer needed the Rings any longer, being enslaved to Sauron now.

Even though Sauron has lost the Ring of Power, Tolkien makes some statements that the Ring is still His & the Ringwraiths are subject to him ~ period.

Gandalf tells Frodo in 'The shadow o
f the Past.':

"The Nine he has gathered to himself; And the Seven, or the Dragons have consumed them." (paraphrase, but close)

So, yes Sauron has the Nine Rings of Men.... How convient since he now has only nine fingers. :*eek:

Why would I call the Ringwraiths Maiar Bucky? I don't think that at all.

As far as the possibility of Sauron giving the Witch-King a ring, it certainly did not need to happen. Melkor for instance "put his power into Carcharoth", so I see no indication or need for a ring transfer to have occurred between Sauron and the Witch-King.