👁️Sauron and Durin's Bane Were Best Buddies

[Bard the Bowman]

Okay, maybe they weren't best buddies, but I think it's clear that they were in league. I saw in another thread people were discussing if Sauron could get Durin's Bane to join him, well, hate to shatter your discussion, but he already had. Gandalf said there were black uruks from Mordor in Moria. Boom. Just wanted to let everyone know that.

 

[Bucky]

Ah, the sound of crickets chirping in my ears......

 

[Bard the Bowman]

Get lost Bucky. We don't need your kind on here.

 

[Gandalf White]

Ah, the sound of crickets chirping in my ears......

Judging by the title of the post, not even the crickets are talking about this one Bucky. ;*)

 

[Erestor Arcamen]

Not to be rude but Bucky's been here for 11 years so I think his 'kind' is welcome on this forum.

I don't know that Sauron could control the Balrog. Maybe when he had his Ring and if he would have gotten it back, but not otherwise. This link gives a lot of good info:

http://tolkien.slimy.com/essays/TAB4.html

 

[Gandalf White]

I don't know that Sauron could control the Balrog. Maybe when he had his Ring and if he would have gotten it back, but not otherwise. This link gives a lot of good info:

http://tolkien.slimy.com/essays/TAB4.html

No control, even with the Ring.

I would assume BtB is referencing more of an alliance of sorts. Which may be possible, though not provable.

I will have to look over your link a little later.

 

[Erestor Arcamen]

I have a few other links as well:

http://tolkien.cro.net/balrogs/sauronvs.html

http://tolkien.cro.net/balrogs/btaylor.html

Both are interesting.

 

[Bucky]

There's no proof whatsoever....

But trying to discuss things around here lately with some people isn't even fun, just a big bummer....

Okay, I read all three essays..

The first, well all it quotes is long outdated, much revised texts that Tolkien dropped in favor of different final plans, so I really don't get the author's point, other than 'Tolkien considered it at one point but ultimately rejected it.'

The second, makes the most sense.

The third, total conjecture.

All seem to miss the point of Myths Transformed #7 where Tolkien states inequitably that 'Morgoth corrupted many spirits, 'some greater, like Sauron; and some lesser, like Balrogs' ~ they're simply not equal..

And another thought: Sauron might not be the greatest of Morgoth's servants....

Ainulindale plainly calls him 'the greatest of the Enemy's servants who have names. What unnamed ones are therefore greater?

 

[Bard the Bowman]

Thank you for the links Erestor. They were helpful. Especially the first one.

 

[Troll]

I imagine it would be difficult to have any political affiliation when you've been trapped in the long dark of Moria for centuries, even after rousing yourself. I doubt the Balrog ever left Moria, even after awaking.

If it had, I'm sure somebody would have noticed. Elrond lives in walking distance from the West-gate (which had remained closed for a very, very long time as of the Fellowship's arrival), and Lorien is pretty much on the East-gate's doorstep. If the Balrog had ventured out through the east gate - and it probably could not have fit through many of the passages of Moria, leaving it open to question as to whether it could even physically get to the west gate - Galadriel would probably have mentioned such a detail to the White Council at some point.

It could even be that Galadriel was somehow preventing the Balrog from leaving, or that it was wary of her presence... She is, after all, the second-most powerful Elf ever to live.

 

[Erestor Arcamen]

How do you think it would have gotten in to Moria? And remember, the Balrog was NOT nearly as tall/big as PJ made it to be most likely.

 

[Bucky]

Erestor: Appendix A.. Durin's Folk...

'It came to pass that in the middle of the Third Age Durin was again it's king, being the sixth of that name (the Dwarves indeed believe that it was Durin himself returned from the death - added by me). The power of Sauron, servant of Morgoth, was then again growing in the world, though the Shadow in the Forest that looked towards Moria was not yet known for what it was. All evil things were stirring. The Dwarves delved deep at that time, seeking beneath Baranzinbar for mithril, the metal beyond price that was becoming yearly harder to win. Thus they roused from sleep* a thing of terror that, flying from Thangorodrim, had lain hidden at the foundations of the earth since the coming of the Host of the West: a Balrog of Morgoth. Durin was slain by it, & a year after Nain I, his son; & then the glory of Moria passed, & it's people were destroyed or fled far away.'

*'Or released from prison; it may well be it had already been awakened by the malice of Sauron.'

Quenta Silmarillion; Of The Voyage Of Earendil & The War Of Wrath:

'The Balrogs were destroyed, save for some few that fled and hid themselves in caverns inacessable at the roots of the earth.'

It should be noted that 'some few' is a really poor choice of words, most likely added by Guy Kay and/or Christopher Tolkien for the published Silmarillion.

HoME states that JRRT Tolkien had determined that the likely total of Balrogs left when Morgoth returned from exile with the Silmarils was 'three or seven'.....

Therefore, it must be seven. Why?

Gothmog & Ecthelien killed each other; minus one....
Glorfindel and another Balrog; minus two....

If there is only three, with Durin's Bane, that leaves zero, and the above quote says 'the Blarogs were ALL destroyed, save SOME FEW.."

So, three is out..

So, with seven, we've already accounted for two, leaving five...

So, if all were destroyed, save some few, what is 'some few' out of 'all destroyed' when there's only five to begin with?

One? Like Durin's Bane?

I'd say that's most likely...

Where would another be hiding unheard of for two ages if 'the malice of Sauron' awoke DB?

We must remember The Silmarillion is not to be taken literally word for word, but as traditions handed down for thousands of years & then recorded by Bilbo......

That's actually the way Tolkien came to realize it.

So no, there's not a couple more Balrogs hiding out there IMHO.



BTW: if you've never read the Appendices at the end of ROTK, A & B contain lots of great info & are a fun read!

 

[Erestor Arcamen]

Yeah I've read all the appendixes mult. times, I wasn't questioning if there were multiple balrogs but just when Troll was talking about how it couldn't have escaped by the East or West Gate, how else it would have gotten in and also that it was most likely not as huge as PJ made it to be.

 

[Prince of Cats]

How do you think it would have gotten in to Moria? And remember, the Balrog was NOT nearly as tall/big as PJ made it to be most likely.

The Balrog was fleeing, trying to save itself. There must have already been extensive natural caves at the site of Moria, into which the Balrog hid. That he was released while the Dwarves mined deeper for Mithril suggests to me that perhaps, in its terror, the Balrog collapsed tunnels upon itself so that the host of Valar couldn't find him there.

Does the War of Wrath pre-date the settlement of Khazad-Dum?

 

[Bucky]

No, I don't think it was more than the 9-13 foot tall esimates others have made & Galin's quotes 'tend' to back up.....

Of course, as your linked essays demonstrate, folks will take all sort of obscure outdated or distorted textual evidence to back up whatever bizarre theories they want to prove ~ regardless of whatever the latest & most finally settled thoughts Tolkien had on a matter.

As for DB never leaving Moria, this alone makes one speculate that he had no connection to Sauron. If he was under orders from Sauron, then he'd make one heck of a Third Age weapon, wouldn't he?

Heck, for all intents & purposes, DB took out one, if not the, greatest challenge & opponent Sauron had out there: Gandalf.....

And this only happened because Gandald wandered into Moria of his own accord.

Had DB been under Sauron's command, why not send him out after Gandalf ~ or Saruman when Sauron thought Saruman was an enemy?
Saruman wasn't far away, or hard to find.....

DB actually did come close to leaving Moria once: He was lurking in the shadows in The Battle of Azanulbizar. Dain saw him in 'the shadow of the Gate' after slaying Azog.

So, something was keeping Durin's Bane from leaving Moria & I doubt it was Sauron's orders....

Most likely, it was the same thing that made him flee there in the first place & hide for 5400 years encased in stone: fear of the Host of the West. How would DB know they had departed over the sea?

How would it know otherwise?

Do balrogs speak?

What would this Balrog speak, having been out of touch for 2 Ages?

The Black Speech had not been invented...

What did Morgoth & his folk speak?

Quenys? Sindarin?

Westron, the Common Speech that Orcs spoke in the Third Age, also had not been invented...

I suppose the communication between DB & the orcs there was not very good...

Except in DB 'perceiving their thoughts', as he did with Gandalf's spell outside the Chamber of Mazarbul.

 

[Sulimo]

Everyone has brought up some interesting points. I have a couple questions, and to Bucky I apologize if I am not up on the most recent Tolkien lore, in general I am more interested in Tolkien's influences.

Couldn't DB change shape. Why would his size be an issue. I thought all Maiar (Balrogs) could do that? I just feel that he just chose to lay low for a while. Which leads to my second thought. We are talking about a couple of millennia as long passage of time. For a spirit that has existed since before time began I suspect that this passage of time was, but the passing of an eye blink. This makes me have to reevaluate what limitations it may have. I am suspicious that it would have a problem with a language barrier. It very likely played a key role in the creation of the goblins in the first place. I think it would be okay, when it comes to understanding them. I do however, agree that it was a fear of the hosts of the west holding it in check, and that was for a good cause. Because a emissary from the West is who meted out its doom.

 

[Troll]

The Balrog was fleeing, trying to save itself. There must have already been extensive natural caves at the site of Moria, into which the Balrog hid. That he was released while the Dwarves mined deeper for Mithril suggests to me that perhaps, in its terror, the Balrog collapsed tunnels upon itself so that the host of Valar couldn't find him there.

Does the War of Wrath pre-date the settlement of Khazad-Dum?

What His Royal Felinity said.

Khazad-dum was settled prior to the War of Wrath; in the description of the coming of the Naugrim to Beleriand and their cities Nogrod and Belegost, there's some mention of the greater houses of the Dwarves in the east, including Khazad-dum. However, in the millennia after the War of Wrath, Moria became much larger and deeper - so I'm guessing the Balrog never came in through either door. Natural events such as earthquakes, flooding, or erosion could well have sealed off the passage through which the Balrog gained entry to the bowels of the earth, not to mention the possibility that it sealed itself in to discourage pursuit.

Even if the Balrog is small enough (or compressible enough) to exit through either gate, the fact remains that Elrond and Galadriel are in the vicinity of the two gates. I'm pretty sure if Durin's Bane exited at any point, they would have mentioned this to Gandalf. Gandalf's reaction to the suggestion that they go through the mines would therefore probably have been along the lines of "not if the fate of Middle-Earth depended on it, you crazy bastard; let's take our chances with the Gap of Rohan."

Did Dain actually see the Balrog, or simply perceive the palpable terror filling Moria? I don't have my books at hand.

Where would another be hiding unheard of for two ages if 'the malice of Sauron' awoke DB?

Why, under Mount Mindolluin of course! :*D That'd be a hell of a surprise for the Telcontari...

 

[Erestor Arcamen]

Maybe the other Balrog was in Nardor and that's why Nardor didn't make it to any of the books, it was wiped off the map by the Balrog before anyone could do anything about it...

 

[Elthir]

Or Nardor as the name of a Balrog? that works!

But then again it did for a dragon :*D

 

[Bucky]

Perhaps the other Balrog's name was Darth Bane. ;*)