👁️Sauron and Moria

[FoolOfATook]

Find it, and three rings that the Dwarf-sires possessed of old shall be returned to you, and the realm of Moria shall be yours for ever

From FOTR- "The Council Of Elrond"- Gloin recounting the messenger from Mordor's offer to Dain.

Obviously with Sauron, we must assume that he's lying through his teeth and never had any intention of even considering to think about giving Moria to the Dwarves. However, this line got me wondering- would Durin's Bane (or any other Balrog that was left by the end of the Third Age) have conceded to Sauron's will? We know that the Balrogs were loyal to Morgoth, but it had never occured to me that they might answer to Sauron, especially Sauron without the Ring. Thoughts?

 

[redline2200]

I would assume that they [balrogs] would answer to Sauron. They were loyal to Morgoth, so they must have known that Sauron was the second in command. I mean, if you are going to fight a war you are loyal to your commander but you know the guy that will take his place if the commander gets killed. I think they probably had a high level of respect for Sauron knowing that he was their ruler if anything happened to Morgoth. But then again your theory about Sauron without the ring is a very good point. I am not sure how Sauron could sent the balrog out of Moria. He himself could not do it because he has no form. The Nazgul maybe? I don't know that is a good question.........

 

[Hadhafang]

I agree.

The Balrogs would certainly follow Sauron with the Ring. Without the ring they still seem subserviant to Sauron. After all couldn't the Balrogs pick a leader of their own and destroy Sauron if they didn't support him. However, maybe they are not that intelligent or organized.

Furthermore, we should assume that Sauron is filled with as much hatred for the people of ME as Melkor. The Dwarves would certainly earn no special favors from Sauron.

 

[Lhunithiliel]

Among those of his servants that have names the greatest was that spirit whom the Eldar called Sauron, or Gorthaur the Cruel. In his beginning he was of the Maiar of Aulë, and he remained mighty in the lore of that people. In all the deeds of Melkor the Morgoth upon Arda, in his vast works and in the deceits of his cunning, Sauron had a part, and was only less evil than his master in that for long he served another and not himself. But in after years he rose like a shadow of Morgoth and a ghost of his malice, and walked behind him on the same ruinous path down into the Void.

Sauron, greatest and most terrible of the servants of Morgoth, who in the Sindarin tongue was named Gorthaur, came against Orodreth, the warden of the tower upon Tol Sirion. Sauron was become now a sorcerer of dreadful power, master of shadows and of phantoms, foul in wisdom, cruel in strength, misshaping what he touched, twisting what he ruled, lord of werewolves; his dominion was torment.

(from the Silmarillion)
So, you see, what he hasd become. A Balrog ....Well isn't he just a beast? How could a Balrog match the intelligence (though malicious) of Sauron?
So, I assume that Sauron could well control Balrogs and any other evil creatures still left inME from the time of Morgoth's dominion. Remember the Watcher - how come that he attacked Frodo of all of the Fellowship?! He must have been "given instructions" **cough, cough***

 

[Sirion]

Originally posted by Lhunithiliel
(from the Silmarillion)
So, you see, what he hasd become. A Balrog ....Well isn't he just a beast? How could a Balrog match the intelligence (though malicious) of Sauron?
So, I assume that Sauron could well control Balrogs and any other evil creatures still left inME from the time of Morgoth's dominion. Remember the Watcher - how come that he attacked Frodo of all of the Fellowship?! He must have been "given instructions" **cough, cough***

Clearly, Balrogs were not just beasts. They were maiar as was Sauron. Being decieved by Morgoth they became his servants, terrible beings of fire and shadow. They possess the inherent intelligence and potency of maiar. Despite this, they would probably still serve Sauron. Throughout the first age, they played more of a "grunt" role and Sauron more of an "commander" role.

 

[Lantarion]

I suppose so, although Balrogs (Valaraukar they are called in the Sil) were among the most formidable soldiers in Melkor's armies, with the Urulóki. Sauron, I think, had grown greater in power, unlike Melkor who became idle and brooding and spent his power in hate and evil thoughts. So I think that (as there were probably less than three Balrogs in the north of Middle-earth at that time) the Balrogs would serve Sauron, who could still alter their minds with fear and terror.
I've actually been wondering, was Anarien, the carrier of the Sun, of the same 'race' of Maiar as the Balrogs? They were both spirits of flame or of fire, and I like to think that the Balrogs were just like her, but converted to evil.

 

[gate7ole]

The Balrogs are not Orcs or Trolls. They were not bred by Morgoth (or Sauron), so we can't say that they had to be absolutely loyal to him. They were Maiar, who lived before Arda and were present at the Music. We should give them a little more credit for independency.
If you told that Sauron could force Durin's Bane to leave Moria, then I would accept it. But I can't accept that it would be loyal to Sauron, so much that to abandon its place of dwelling. The Balrogs were servants of Morgoth, not of Sauron. Throughout the history, Sauron always ruled them on behalf of Morgoth, not of himself.
Besides, Sauron and the Balrogs were of the same order (Maiar), which means that they wouldn't easily accept him as their master.
No, I think Sauron had no mastery over Durin's Bane. They might be in allegiance or Sauron left him work in Moria, since it was also his benefit that the dwarves stayed out of it. And in the end, if Sauron got angry with it, he would be able to destroy it.

Originally posted by Lhunithiliel
Remember the Watcher - how come that he attacked Frodo of all of the Fellowship?! He must have been "given instructions" **cough, cough***

This is very controversial and has raised many discussions. Personally, I don't believe that all the evils of ME had Sauron as their source. The Watcher, Durin's Bane, Caradrhas, all of them were more or less independent and worked in favor of Sauron, but not controlled by him.

 

[FoolOfATook]

This is very controversial and has raised many discussions. Personally, I don't believe that all the evils of ME had Sauron as their source. The Watcher, Durin's Bane, Caradrhas, all of them were more or less independent and worked in favor of Sauron, but not controlled by him.

This reminds me of something that Tolkien wrote in a letter where he was complaining about the 1955-56 BBC broadcast of LOTR. I'll just copy the whole thing:

I think the book quite unsuitable for 'dramatization', and have not enjoyed the broadcasts- though they have improved. I thought Tom Bombadil dreadful- but worse still was the announcer's preliminary remarks that Goldberry was his daughter (!), and that Willowman was an ally of Mordor (!!). CANNOT PEOPLE IMAGINE THINGS HOSTILE TO MEN AND HOBBITS WHO PREY ON THEM WITHOUT BEING IN LEAGUE WITH THE DEVIL!

-From The Letters Of J.R.R. Tolkien number 175

I especially believe that this quotation could apply just as fairly to Caradrhas as it does to Old Man Willow. I'm not surprised that Gate7ole seems to share a lot of my thoughts about the question I raised (I've noticed that we share many similar ideas about Middle-earth) and I think that it's important to take his ideas a step further and remember that Balrogs commanded armies for Morgoth (I'm at school right now, so I don't have the Sil handy- it tells you a lot about me that I happened to have Letters with me ) I've heard some suggestions that Durin's Bane rules over the Orcs of Moria, but I'm not sold on that idea at all.

A related question- what do you suppose would have happened if Durin's Bane had managed to take the Ring from Frodo? Does anyone here believe that the Balrog would have surrendered it to Sauron? An interesting hypothetical when considering who the Balrogs of the Third Age are loyal to...

 

[Sirion]

If the Balrog in Moria got the ring, i really really doubt he would give it Sauron. I figure he'd put it on, make Sauron his servant, take up Sauron's throne and take over ME, just like Sauron would have done.

 

[Bib]

Well... er... I haven't got my copy of LotR somewhere near but a Balrog putting on a ring? Does it say in the book that it got a couple of hands and some nice fingers to put a ring on? (if so, correct me)

But I agree that the Balrog was not the leader of the Orcs of Moria. If it was, they wouldn't have been so scared of it.

If I was a Balrog just relaxing under a mountain I could'nt care less about any orcs.

 

[aragil]

From the Lord of the Rings, Shelob's Lair
And as for Sauron: he knew where she lurked. It pleased him that she should dwell there hungry but unabated in malice, a more sure watch upon that ancient path into his land than any other that his skill could have devised. And Orcs, they were useful slaves, but he had them in plenty. If now and again Shelob caught them to stay her appetite, she was welcome: he could spare them. And sometimes as a man may cast a dainty to his cat (his cat he calls her, but she owns him not) Sauron would send her prisoners that he had no better uses for: he would have them driven to her hole, and report brought back to him of the play she made.
So they both lived, delighting in their own devices, and feared no assault, nor wrath, nor any end of their wickedness. Never yet had any fly escaped from Shelob's webs, and the greater now was her rage and hunger.

This is the bit from LotR describing the relationship between Shelob and Sauron. Don't know why the relationship between Sauron and DB would be any different- they both like to kill things, but Sauron would not be acknowledged as the master. Just IMO, of course.

 

[aragil]

Originally posted by Bib
Well... er... I haven't got my copy of LotR somewhere near but a Balrog putting on a ring? Does it say in the book that it got a couple of hands and some nice fingers to put a ring on? (if so, correct me)

From the Lord of the Rings, The Bridge of Khazad-dûm
It came to the edge of the fire and the light faded as if a cloud had bent over it. Then with a rush it leaped across the fissure. The flames roared up to greet it, and wreathed about it; and a black smoke swirled in the air. Its streaming mane kindled, and blazed behind it. In its right hand was a blade like a stabbing tongue of fire; in its left it held a whip of many thongs.

I assume hands capable of grasping either a whip or a sword posessed fingers which could wear a ring.

Originally posted by Bib
But I agree that the Balrog was not the leader of the Orcs of Moria. If it was, they wouldn't have been so scared of it.

Orcs were extremely afraid of Sauron- that is how he controlled them, through fear. Not that I think the Balrog was necessarily the boss, but I don't think the fear factor precludes this.