👁️Sauron during the Downfall

OK this may be a inanely easy question to answer, buuuut Sauron was in Numenor corupting the king and doing his dark shadow thing. when the king finally goes to assail the Valar, where had Sauron gone to? and gracias in advance

He was in Numenor, when the island sunk he was there and went down with it. He then lost his ability to appear in a "fair" form and went back to Mordor as a spirit of evil or something.

But Sauron was not of mortal flesh, and though he was robbed now fo the shape in which he had wrought so great an evil, so that he could never again appear fair in the eyes of Men, yet his spirit arose out the deep and passed as a shadow and black wind over the sea, and came back to Middle-Earth and to Mordor that was his home.

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Published Silmarillion

[QUOTE said:

But Sauron was not of mortal flesh, and though he was robbed now fo the shape in which he had wrought so great an evil, so that he could never again appear fair in the eyes of Men, yet his spirit arose out the deep and passed as a shadow and black wind over the sea, and came back to Middle-Earth and to Mordor that was his home.

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Inderjit S]
Published Silmarillion[/QUOTE]
That is pretty much wat I said.

I know, I am just giving the quote to help validate it.

Sauron was in his circular temple, murdering people on his profane altar. From Silmarillion, “Akallabêth”:

...all things waited upon the word of Ar-Pharazôn; and Sauron withdrew into the inmost circle of the Temple, and men brought him victims to be burned.

...

...Sauron, sitting in his black seat in the midst of the Temple, ... even as he laughed at his own thought, thinking what he would do now in the world, being rid of the Edain for ever, he was taken in the midst of his mirth, and his seat and his temple fell into the abyss.

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You might notice that the second half of that quote are the words just before the “But Sauron was not of mortal flesh…” quote already offered.

When Númenor collapsed and fell into the sea, Sauron was still in his temple. Taken by surprise, he was unable to escape and plunged into the depths inside the structure, where his original physical form was destroyed.

(Perhaps Sauron had the walls and roof “Maia-proofed” to keep out interference from Valinor? If so, then he suffered the same sort of problem at Númenor as he did at Barad-dûr at the end of the Third Age, when the “veils” he set up to keep the Wise from looking in on his activities interfered with his discovering that Frodo had crept into Mordor with his Ring.)

"there is evil there that does not sleep"

But maybe that's one of the problems with evil... not enough sleep, one burning red eye... focusing too much on himself and his own plans, Sauron made assumptions about what the Men of the West would do with the ring, instead of planning for possibilities.

This is the same "sin" that allowed Hawaii -- with more than 100 fighter aircraft -- to be caught unaware on 7 Dec 1941... General Short and Admiral Kimmel assumed what the Japanese would do and were defeated soundly.

Sauron (during the War of the Jewels, in Mordor before being captured, while on Numenor, and finally during the War of the Ring) made his plans entirely on he would do in their place instead of defending against their capabilities.

Do you know of other examples of hubris in LotR and the other books? I think that's the main theme... Over and over, pride is the downfall...

Let us avoid that mistake. ;-)

Melkor against Eru would be the prime example; also, Feanor strikes me as someone who hugely underrated Melkor's abilities, esspecially if we consider his disengagement from the main noldorin host. Ar-Pharazon's attack on Valinor falls into that line too.

Exactly!!

Wasn't it pride that caused Beren's father-in-law to mount the Silmaril in the Nauglimir? And didn't that pride cause the arguments with the dwarven smiths that led to his death and the loss of his realm (and the protection of his subjects and his family?

And what of the Earnur, the last King of Gondor, who accepted a challenge of single combat against the Witch King?

"[SIZE=-1]Earnur became King of Gondor in 2043. The Witch-king challenged his adversary to single-combat, mocking him for his failure to stand and fight at the Battle of Fornost. Mardil, the Steward of Gondor, convinced Earnur to refuse the Witch-king, but seven years later the challenge was renewed and Earnur accepted. He rode with a small company of knights to Minas Morgul and they were never seen again. Earnur was believed to have died in torment in Minas Morgul. He left no heir, and it was from that time that the Stewards began to rule Gondor in absence of a King.[/SIZE]"

Thorin, famous for his presence as leader in There and Back Again, nearly caused a war between Dwarf, Elf, and Men that would have been disastrous.

Balin's ill-fated venture back into Moria was undoubtedly based more on pride than reason.

Saruman's pride drove him away from his assigned task (i.e., oppose Sauron, but not by force) and led to his ignoble death.

Lotho Sackville-Baggins, Ted Sandyman, and probably a lot of unnamed hobbits had the same problem, though with markedly different results.




How can we (avoiding all politicking and other such orc-talk) apply this to our own lives? I think it's really important to try to lift the spirits of those around us. Look for ways to help others. It's really not about us, individually. There is a Greater Good...

For example, this forum is a really wonderful opportunity to discuss Tolkien's works and what might have been behind beneath, and beyond what he put on paper. I'm really grateful to the moderators and all those who post here!

Not only pride, but jealousy to. The ultimate example of jealousy was when Morgoth stole the jewels of Feanor causing the great war of Beleriand.

Adressing & seeing pride is great, but pride is such an inherent part of the Human soul since our Downfall that we all have it to such a degree that we can NEVER overcome it on our own - hence the need for a Savior, Jesus the Christ.
Only when we invite Him into our lives as the Sacrivice for our prideful sin & rebellion can we begin to see the prideful motives berhind all our actions & hope for change & to see clearly.
Even then, it's a daily struggle to submit.

As for Sauron during the Downfall, he is clearly a picture of Satan here.....

Poisoning the mind of Ar-Pharazon, egging him on to take on The Valar. Tempting, tempting, tempting.....

Accomplishing what he can't accomplish in power by subtlety & craftyness.

The ultimate picture for me is when Sauron stands on top of the temple during the thundstorm & defies the lightning & The Valar & Men call him a god - just as Satan wants us to do.

And yet, when it's time for war, does Sauron go?
No. He gets Ar-Pharazon to go with the army that has humbled him 100 years earlier......

Is Sauron expecting the Earth to open up & swallow The Numenoreans?
I don't think so. I believe that what Sauron expects is a huge battle between The Host of The West & The Numenoreans with
Ar-Pharazon's forces wiping out a good portion of the unprepared Elves of Aman before The Host is prepared for battle.
In this way, Sauron expects to kill two birds with one stone.
He may even be planning to bring about the freeing of Melkor/Morgoth, who has been cast into the void & cannot be returned to Middle Earth while The Valar are enthroned.

Far fetched?
Possibly, but, remember, The Valar DO feel so overwhelmed that they lay down their sovereignty of Arda to Eru, and Sauron has been having live sacrivices brought to him in the name of 'Melkor, Lord of All, Giver of Freedom' and 'Lord of the Darkness'.

However, it's quite possible that after about 2000 years, Sauron had gotten quite used to being #1 and releasing Melkor/Morgoth might have crimped his style.