Saurons 👁️eye

Ravenna · Sep 6, 2002

JUst a couple of things I found while searching the Silmarillion re Sauron having taken physical shape.

For coming out of the wastes of the East he took up his abode in the south of the forest and slowly he grew and took shape there again; in a dark hill he made his dwelling and wrought there his sorcery.

please note 'grew and took shape'.
and again

'It is Sauron himself who has taken shape again and now grows apace.'

As to Sauron being too weak to take on more than a shadowy form, Mithrandir states to the White Council that

Soon he will be too strong for you, even without the Great Ring; for he rules the Nine and of the Seven he has recovered three.

If he was that powerful at the time of the Hobbit, and was growing in power after that, I would think he certainly had enough power to take visible human form. As to using others to speak for him, many dictators, or rulers use this method of communicating with enemies, after all, Sauron is hardly likely to simply ride out into the midst of an army composed of his deadliest enemies, so instead he sends his emissary which is a perfectly normal thing to do in thiat situation.

Nenya Evenstar · Sep 6, 2002

Hmmm... still thinking. It sure does appear, from all the quotes provided, that Sauron did have a physical body. It's just so hard to let go of a life-long picture of how you've always thought Sauron was... I'll work on it.

Lhunithiliel · Sep 7, 2002

Sauron was not of mortal flesh, and though he was robbed now of that shape in which he had wrought so great an evil, so that he could never again appear fair to the eyes of Men, yet his spirit arose out of the deep and passed as a shadow and a black wind over the sea, and came back to Middle-earth and to Mordor that was his home. There he took up again his great Ring in Barad-dur, and dwelt there, dark and silent, until he wrought himself a new guise, an image of malice and hatred made visible; and the EYE of Sauron the Terrible few could endure .

Well said BY TOLKIEN HIMSELF.

Tar-Elenion · Sep 7, 2002

Originally posted by Lhunithiliel
Well, now! Are we going to discuss in a civilized manner or use mockery in order to look more convincing in our arguments?

The question was serious ('Buu' for example took the question in that manner and made answer to it). Gollum describes Sauron's hand. You argue that Sauron was a disembodied Eyeball. Where was the hand attached?

Re: The Silmarillion being the 'final form'.

You provide quotes from the forward, none of which answer the question, What is The Silmarillion the final form of?

If you state that Sauron had ONLY one form - that of a human body, then quote from these books the extracts where it is PARTICULARLY mentioned and/or described so! The LETTERS, you so many times refer to, are just to reveal the course of creation of one or another character, the author's opinions on what he was creating, the desire to share these opinions and comment on them. The content of the Letters, however, can hardly be accepted as the FINAL decision of how exactly this or another character would be presented in the main stroy.

No, the letter I cited (#246) is from 1963, well after LotR was published, and was in responce to a reader's comments on Frodo's failure at the Cracks of Doom. This can quite clearly be accepted as how the author veiwed the incarnation of Sauron.

The other letter I cited from (#200) is from 1957 above and shows JRRT's thoughts on Sauron's form a little after the publication of LotR.

"It was because of this pre-occupation with the Children of God that the spirits so often took the form and likeness of the Children, especially after their appearance. It was thus that Sauron appeared in this shape. It is mythologically supposed that when this shape was 'real', that is a physical actuality in the physical world and not a vision transferred from mind to mind, it took some time to build up. It was then destructible like other physical organisms. But that of course did not destroy the spirit, nor dismiss it from the world to which it was bound until the end."

What shape did Sauron appear in? The "form and likeness of the Children".

Then of course we have the dust jacket sketch for RotK with Sauron's form clearly depicted, and the dust jacket design itself (#181 and #182 in 'Artist and Illustrator') These were done at a time when LotR was nearing completion (the sketch was drawn an a paper dated 1953).

Tar-Elenion · Sep 7, 2002

Originally posted by Buu
Gollums words don't need to mean that Sauron really had a body, Gollum could have meant it mental if you understand what I mean.

Gollum clearly describes Sauron as having only four fingers on his hand. This does not seem metaphorical at all, especially since we know that Isildur chopped a finger off.

Sauron lost power when he was destroyed in the Atalante, couldn't he had lost so mutch power when the ring was taken away by Isildur and he was defeated that he couldn't take shape again?

No, since JRRT says he did take shape again: "After the battle with Gilgalad and Elendil, Sauron took a long while to re-build, longer than he had done after the Downfall of Númenor..." (Letter 200); LotR, App B, Third Age, Year 2060: "The power of Dol Guldur grows. The Wise fear that it may be Sauron taking shape again."

These in addition to the quotes provided by Ravenna above.

Eledhwen · Sep 7, 2002

Some of these trains of thought imply that physical muscle is needed in order for there to be strength. I imagine Sauron the Maia as an angelic (spirit) being who can no longer obtain flesh and blood to clothe himself in. Like other spirit beings he has chosen the form of the Children of God (as Tar-Elenion quotes), but the physical-looking form he can take is limited by his own malice and loathing of beauty. I would imagine that, just as electricity can feel like a physical force, Sauron too could look and feel solid, as if he had a body of flesh and bone.

Four fingers? Sauron's choice, I think. If he can lose his entire body and re-form, surely he can replace the finger too. Maybe the gap is a focus for his malice.

Tar-Elenion · Sep 7, 2002

Originally posted by Lhunithiliel

Well said BY TOLKIEN HIMSELF.

Quite well said. JRRT clearly states that Sauron had an Eye ("the Eye of Sauron"). His sketch of Sauron backs this up, he quite clearly draws an Eye in Sauron's head (which is attached to a torso, and has a shoulder, arm and hand clearly depicted).

Gil-Galad · Sep 7, 2002

Originally posted by Lhunithiliel
Sauron's shape is described as an "lidless eye". So, yes, it is an eye surrounded by flames. I am sure there was a place in the book describing it, but sorry, I could not find it right now.

So is there really an eye sitting up there on the tower?/QUOTE]
*bursts with laughter*
Forgive me, but it's so funny to imagine how an eye can "sit"!!!

Click to expand...

Lhu. just imagine the eye sitting like you early in the morning and watching what's happenning in the forum ,having a cup of coffee near him.

Lhunithiliel · Sep 8, 2002

Dear Loremaster Tar-Elenion,
You know, you and me are like two very, very old ladies, speaking to each other but not hearing well enough what each of them is speaking about! No offence!
I am trying to say that Sauron the Great Maia could choose to take ANY shape he wished, though not that mighty or that fair as he used to appear in in the old times.
I am just saying that the form mostly seen by the majority of the LOTR characters is that of an "eye in burning flames". I am NOT the one who chose that shape - Sauron (through Tolkien, of course!) has chosen it!
And the quotes some of the participants here, incl. me, have provided, clearly back up this argument.
Therefore, I most certainly could have NOT imagined an "eyeball (as a matter of fact, it was NOT an "eyeball" as you say; it was like the pupil of a cat's eye) with a four-fingered arm sticking out of it" (though what a horrifying picture it would have been!).

HEAR ME, I stand for the fact that Sauron cose to apear in diffrent forms, but mostly produced the horrifying image of the "burning eye".

Now - the Letters:
What is commented on in them I will not deny. Yet, in the main story there have been numerous comments about the shape that Sauron had taken but not once it was clearly stated what exactly this shape was and if it was only one!

Re. Gollum: Based on my theory that Sauron could choose any shape, I think he chose to appear in this precise form in front of Gollum in order to horify the poor creature. But THE MOST IMPORTANT point here is - Sauron may have chosen to look like in the old days because he knew that after he released Gollum the creature would go among the other peoples of the ME and terrified as he was, he would spread the news : "The Dark Lord has returned! Mighty as in the old days! Fear him! Obey him!" I can NOT accept what Gollum saw as an evidence of Sauron ONE and Only shape.

The drawing: Sorry, I can not comment, because I have no idea of what you are speaking. It is obvious that this is some drawing by Tolkien. OK. But I have to see it in order to comment , right?

There now, I have HEARD you and I'd like you to HEAR me!

Lhunithiliel · Sep 8, 2002

Gil-Galad,
Yes, only my eye is not burning within flames and I deffinitely do not live in a tower!

But mornings are my favourite time of the day!!
-----------
I am GLAD that you have joined our Guild!

Tar-Elenion · Sep 8, 2002

Originally posted by Lhunithiliel
I am trying to say that Sauron the Great Maia could choose to take ANY shape he wished, though not that mighty or that fair as he used to appear in in the old times.
I am just saying that the form mostly seen by the majority of the LOTR characters is that of an "eye in burning flames". I am NOT the one who chose that shape - Sauron (through Tolkien, of course!) has chosen it!
And the quotes some of the participants here, incl. me, have provided, clearly back up this argument.
Therefore, I most certainly could have NOT imagined an "eyeball (as a matter of fact, it was NOT an "eyeball" as you say; it was like the pupil of a cat's eye) with a four-fingered arm sticking out of it" (though what a horrifying picture it would have been!).

HEAR ME, I stand for the fact that Sauron cose to apear in diffrent forms, but mostly produced the horrifying image of the "burning eye".

There is no such 'fact'.
READ THIS:

Melkor alone of the Great became at last bound to a bodily form; but that was because of the use that he made of this in his purpose to become Lord of the Incarnate, and of the great evils that he did in the visible body. Also he had dissipated his native powers in the control of his agents and servants, so that he became in the end, in himself and without their support, a weakened thing, consumed by hate and unable to restore himself from the state into which he had fallen. Even his visible form he could no longer master, so that its hideousness could not any longer be masked, and it showed forth the evil of his mind. So it was also with even some of his greatest servants, as in these later days we see: they became wedded to the forms of their evil deeds, and if these bodies were taken from them or destroyed, they were nullified, until they had rebuilt a semblance of their former habitations, with which they could continue the evil courses in which they had become fixed". (Pengolodh here evidently refers to Sauron in particular, from whose arising he fled at last from Middle-earth. But the first destruction of the bodily form of Sauron was recorded in the histories of the Elder Days, in the Lay of Leithian.)

This is from Note 5 to Osanwe-kenta (by JRRT) as published in VT 39.
Sauron, like Melkor, became bound to an incarnate form. This form was not an eyeball (or even a pupil). As JRRT says in Letter 200:
"It was because of this pre-occupation with the Children of God that the spirits so often took the form and likeness of the Children, especially after their appearance. It was thus that Sauron appeared in this shape."
And in Letter 246: "The form that he took was that of a man of more than human stature, but not gigantic."

Lhunithiliel wrote:
Now - the Letters:
What is commented on in them I will not deny. Yet, in the main story there have been numerous comments about the shape that Sauron had taken but not once it was clearly stated what exactly this shape was and if it was only one!

If this is true, then the only clear statements we have on the matter are those from 'Letters' and from 'Osanwe-kenta' and from the sketch and drawing of Sauron. These were done by JRRT and none of them suggest multiple forms and none of them suggest the form of an Eyeball (or a pupil (though you should reread the passage)).

Re. Gollum: Based on my theory that Sauron could choose any shape, I think he chose to appear in this precise form in front of Gollum in order to horify the poor creature. But THE MOST IMPORTANT point here is - Sauron may have chosen to look like in the old days because he knew that after he released Gollum the creature would go among the other peoples of the ME and terrified as he was, he would spread the news : "The Dark Lord has returned! Mighty as in the old days! Fear him! Obey him!" I can NOT accept what Gollum saw as an evidence of Sauron ONE and Only shape.

Did Gollum do that?
You dont have to accept what Gollum said, but I will accept what JRRT said.
Based on what JRRT said, Sauron had one incarnate form which "was that of a man".

The drawing: Sorry, I can not comment, because I have no idea of what you are speaking. It is obvious that this is some drawing by Tolkien. OK. But I have to see it in order to comment , right?

J.R.R. Tolkien Artist and Illustrator, by Wayne G. Hammond and Christina Scull, published by Houghton Mifflin, ISBN 0-618-08361-8, $25.00.

There now, I have HEARD you and I'd like you to HEAR me!

But have you HEARD the author?

mr underhill · Sep 8, 2002

i doubt sauron would take the form of an eye.....

i always thought he used some kind o palantir type thing to see everything and he appeared as an eye...

Gil-Galad · Sep 14, 2002

Originally posted by Lhunithiliel
Gil-Galad,
Yes, only my eye is not burning within flames and I deffinitely do not live in a tower!
But mornings are my favourite time of the day!!
-----------
I am GLAD that you have joined our Guild!

Yes I know,but I hate the mornings .10x for being so polite,and I'm happy too that you're there..
And by the way I forgot about the topic of the post.I have to agree with you again.I think that you should write down what do you think about every post,and my work will be just to write:"I agree with Lhu!"

Turin · Feb 12, 2003

How can souron put the ring on?

If souron could not take fisical form, then if he obtained the ring how could he put it on?

Ithrynluin · Feb 12, 2003

Where did you hear he didn't have a physical form at the time of the LOTR?

He sure did, one of the indications of this is Gollum's statement:

`Yes, He has only four on the Black Hand, but they are enough,' said Gollum shuddering. 'And He hated Isildur's city.'

Gollum has seen Sauron while he was tormented in Barad-dur, so his statement is more than believable.

Turin · Feb 12, 2003

Gandalf says somewere that "He cannot yet take fisical form" or something along those lines. I might be wrong.

Ithrynluin · Feb 12, 2003

In the movie, perhaps?
Don't take everything you hear in the movies for Tolkien fact!

Niniel · Feb 12, 2003

I found two quotes proving that he has a physical form:
From Shadows of the Past:

'Then Sauron was vanquished and his spirit fled and was hidden for long years, until his shadow took shape again in Mirkwood.' (Gandalf)

From The Council of Elrond:

'He was none other than Sauron, our Enemy of old, at length taking shape and power again.' (also Gandalf)

I guess that proves it.

mr underhill · Feb 12, 2003

that simply states the shadow returned.. not many shadows are physical forms..

turin ive seen plenty of posts by you calling sauron souron...

its SAURON !!

Ithrynluin · Feb 12, 2003

Originally posted by mr underhill
that simply states the shadow returned.. not many shadows are physical forms..

No, it states that the shadow took shape again. A shadow that takes shape is not a shadow anymore.

Saurons 👁️eye

Member

Elite

Fëanorean

Elite

Elite

Cumbrian

Elite

in love

Fëanorean

Fëanorean

Elite

My Birthday 3rd of Dec

in love

...Lost

seeker of solace

...Lost

seeker of solace

Random Quoter

My Birthday 3rd of Dec

seeker of solace

Share this page

Similar threads

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency