ZehnWaters
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Nov 29, 2020
- Messages
- 1,673
Possibly? Elendil's ships weren't military in usage, though, so they might have been different in shape.But treasure ship's size didn't match Numenorean naval military purposes, unless for logistic reasons. Might these Numenorean warships size match mobile naval fortress in the battle of PO-YANG lake in 1363 AD more?
Height is actually a massive advantage in pre-gunpowder naval combat, to the point that medieval sailing ships mounted elevated fighting platforms. That is actually where the term "forecastle" originates, BTW:Some of the most suspicous things might include combat use, after all, the only Numenorean arty mentioned were nothing but their MLRS instead of "line arty of battleships". If that's so, too much height seemed to be unfit their naval tactics, after all, MLRS seemed to fit deck-shotting platform instead of the side-bulk of the ships.
No need to build giant ships to deforest Numenor. A massive fleet of large carracks of ships akin to ships of the line in size would manage that quite handsomely. I actually wrote on that before:I'd need to look up the reference, but I originally mentioned these ships in a thread speculating on the possible size of those taken by Elendil to Middle-earth.
There's also the matter of the vast quantities of timber shipped back to Numenor, which deforested great swaths of territory. I suppose that might be called "logistic". In any event, if the Numenoreans were capable of building them, they'd want the largest capacity possible.
Ships of the Line were built of wood – and this wood had to be available not only in massive quantities, but also in appropriate types. Most important wood for building ships was oak. To build a single ship of the line, it was necessary to cut down some hundred hectares of centennial oak forest – 3 000 oaks were needed just for the keel and the ribs. Other types of wood were also necessary, however – pine and fir for the masts and yards, elm for the braces and gun carriages, beech for oars, holm oak for axles, walnut and poplar for statues. Trees had to be of a proper shape for building particular parts of the ship, and sometimes trees were grown to be of such a shape.
Yes, but during the "arty-battleships" era, height still provide a obious advantage-containing more guns, if the length are the same, right?Height is actually a massive advantage in pre-gunpowder naval combat
OH yes I forgot that he's impossible to have any authority to command any military vessels since they're all assembled for the Valinor invasion XD
Yes, but during the "arty-battleships" era, height still provide a obious advantage-containing more guns, if the length are the same, right?
Just throw a blanket over it, I'm sure no one will notice. Maybe they were hoping that Elendil was finally just leaving for good?Oh, I agree -- large areas of Colonial America were deforested to supply the Royal Navy, and they didn't need Ming-sized ships. I'd just say that, given the almost "mythical" powers attributed to Numenor, the building of them couldn't be ruled out, if they wanted them.
After all, we know that Isildur, even under surveillance by the king, managed to get a twelve-fourteen foot stone into his. Beside that, I wouldn't put anything past them! 😄 😄
Without cannons what would they have even been using for weapons? Ballistae?Yes, but only if you can actually utilize it.
Early gun ships only had guns on the main deck - construction wasn't so advanced as to allow gun ports, and in any case bronze guns were too expensive.
Only later, with steel-cast cannons and gun ports did ships start utilizing multiple decks for artillery.
Without cannons what would they have even been using for weapons? Ballistae?
Well that's boring lolIn most cases, just archers and grappling hooks. Naval battles in pre-gun era generally came down to this:
Of course, in typical circumstances boarders wouldn't be attacking from a tiny little jolly-boat and also wouldn't have advantage of a magical strength potion...
Ballistae weren't that useful in naval battles as they required time to set up, and ships constantly move and are generally not stable firing platforms.
Asterix? Boring?!Well that's boring lol
Oh, not Asterix. Old-timey naval combat. Boarding? No projectiles?Asterix? Boring?!
Preposterous! You must pay penance!
As that galley clearly shows a ramming bow, and probably accurately so (René Goscinny and Albert Uderzo were sticklers for historical accuracy), that was another option in naval warfare for a long time.In most cases, just archers and grappling hooks. Naval battles in pre-gun era generally came down to this:
Also true. And far more interesting in my opinion.As that galley clearly shows a ramming bow, and probably accurately so (René Goscinny and Albert Uderzo were sticklers for historical accuracy), that was another option in naval warfare for a long time.
Oh, at the time, definitely. But ramming fell out of use as the ship construction changed from hull-first to ribs-first construction, which was far sturdier. In fact, I believe even late Roman navy may have abandoned ramming in favor of boarding.As that galley clearly shows a ramming bow, and probably accurately so (René Goscinny and Albert Uderzo were sticklers for historical accuracy), that was another option in naval warfare for a long time.
But here's the point, the Nuemenorean hadno reasons to use ram tactic since it's exclusively useful in naval battles and we all knew that Numenorean had almost no thassaly rivals. Arty batteries seemed to be the most preffered tactics for it's navy, right?Oh, at the time, definitely. But ramming fell out of use as the ship construction changed from hull-first to ribs-first construction, which was far sturdier. In fact, I believe even late Roman navy may have abandoned ramming in favor of boarding.
"Ramming" was still used though... for boarding purposes. Later galleys had a boarding platform at the prow - much more practical than the corvus - and they would ram the enemy ship with it to allow the boarders to cross.
Yes.But here's the point, the Nuemenorean hadno reasons to use ram tactic since it's exclusively useful in naval battles and we all knew that Numenorean had almost no thassaly rivals. Arty batteries seemed to be the most preffered tactics for it's navy, right?
I'm pretty sure pre-gunpowder weapons had miltiple cases to be used as anti-moving targets, such as personnel, such as Romans's scorpions, Song dynasty's arcuballista, Alexendar's catapults or ballistas during his campiagns against Schytia, and so on. In addition, Numenor did have gunpowder weapons such as MLRS, correct me if I'm mistaken. To sum up, might Numenor have naval anti-personnel arty?
Torsion-powered artillery could be used in such a manner, yes, and it is technically possible for Numenoreans to have had it. I do not recall any mention of such artillery in Tolkien's work, however, though tension variants of ballistae may have been used instead (Numenoreans did have steel bows, after all). At any rate, such artillery was used in exclusively anti-personnel role, to suppress enemy crew prior to boarding. In sieges, some warships would mount larger stone-throwers, but these again were used into anti-personnel role - for suppression and decrenellation.I'm pretty sure pre-gunpowder weapons had miltiple cases to be used as anti-moving targets, such as personnel, such as Romans's scorpions, Song dynasty's arcuballista, Alexendar's catapults or ballistas during his campiagns against Schytia, and so on. In addition, Numenor did have gunpowder weapons such as MLRS, correct me if I'm mistaken. To sum up, might Numenor have naval anti-personnel arty?
Numenor basically had naval dominance by default, as there was nobody to challenge it.
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Are you happy to accept cookies and these technologies?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Are you happy to accept cookies and these technologies?