👁️Sauron's Plans & Númenórean populations

[ZehnWaters]

But treasure ship's size didn't match Numenorean naval military purposes, unless for logistic reasons. Might these Numenorean warships size match mobile naval fortress in the battle of PO-YANG lake in 1363 AD more?

Possibly? Elendil's ships weren't military in usage, though, so they might have been different in shape.

 

[Aldarion]

Some of the most suspicous things might include combat use, after all, the only Numenorean arty mentioned were nothing but their MLRS instead of "line arty of battleships". If that's so, too much height seemed to be unfit their naval tactics, after all, MLRS seemed to fit deck-shotting platform instead of the side-bulk of the ships.

Height is actually a massive advantage in pre-gunpowder naval combat, to the point that medieval sailing ships mounted elevated fighting platforms. That is actually where the term "forecastle" originates, BTW:

War at Sea – Galley vs Sailing Ship

In much fantasy, authors opt to use either galleys, sailing ships, or even both, without understanding how these two configurations interact. This post looks at that question.

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I'd need to look up the reference, but I originally mentioned these ships in a thread speculating on the possible size of those taken by Elendil to Middle-earth.

There's also the matter of the vast quantities of timber shipped back to Numenor, which deforested great swaths of territory. I suppose that might be called "logistic". In any event, if the Numenoreans were capable of building them, they'd want the largest capacity possible.

No need to build giant ships to deforest Numenor. A massive fleet of large carracks of ships akin to ships of the line in size would manage that quite handsomely. I actually wrote on that before:

War at Sea – Ship of the Line

18th century was a century of sailing and naval expansion in Europe. Major discoveries had been made in previous centuries, such as reaching Americas in the late 15th and early 16th centuries (disc…

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Ships of the Line were built of wood – and this wood had to be available not only in massive quantities, but also in appropriate types. Most important wood for building ships was oak. To build a single ship of the line, it was necessary to cut down some hundred hectares of centennial oak forest – 3 000 oaks were needed just for the keel and the ribs. Other types of wood were also necessary, however – pine and fir for the masts and yards, elm for the braces and gun carriages, beech for oars, holm oak for axles, walnut and poplar for statues. Trees had to be of a proper shape for building particular parts of the ship, and sometimes trees were grown to be of such a shape.

 

[Squint-eyed Southerner]

Oh, I agree -- large areas of Colonial America were deforested to supply the Royal Navy, and they didn't need Ming-sized ships. I'd just say that, given the almost "mythical" powers attributed to Numenor, the building of them couldn't be ruled out, if they wanted them.

After all, we know that Isildur, even under surveillance by the king, managed to get a twelve-fourteen foot stone into his. Beside that, I wouldn't put anything past them! 😄 😄

 

[Hisoka Morrow]

Height is actually a massive advantage in pre-gunpowder naval combat

Yes, but during the "arty-battleships" era, height still provide a obious advantage-containing more guns, if the length are the same, right?

Possibly? Elendil's ships weren't military in usage,

OH yes I forgot that he's impossible to have any authority to command any military vessels since they're all assembled for the Valinor invasion XD

 

[Aldarion]

Yes, but during the "arty-battleships" era, height still provide a obious advantage-containing more guns, if the length are the same, right?

Yes, but only if you can actually utilize it.

Early gun ships only had guns on the main deck - construction wasn't so advanced as to allow gun ports, and in any case bronze guns were too expensive.

Only later, with steel-cast cannons and gun ports did ships start utilizing multiple decks for artillery.

 

[ZehnWaters]

Oh, I agree -- large areas of Colonial America were deforested to supply the Royal Navy, and they didn't need Ming-sized ships. I'd just say that, given the almost "mythical" powers attributed to Numenor, the building of them couldn't be ruled out, if they wanted them.

After all, we know that Isildur, even under surveillance by the king, managed to get a twelve-fourteen foot stone into his. Beside that, I wouldn't put anything past them! 😄 😄

Just throw a blanket over it, I'm sure no one will notice. Maybe they were hoping that Elendil was finally just leaving for good?

 

[ZehnWaters]

Yes, but only if you can actually utilize it.

Early gun ships only had guns on the main deck - construction wasn't so advanced as to allow gun ports, and in any case bronze guns were too expensive.

Only later, with steel-cast cannons and gun ports did ships start utilizing multiple decks for artillery.

Without cannons what would they have even been using for weapons? Ballistae?

 

[Aldarion]

Without cannons what would they have even been using for weapons? Ballistae?

In most cases, just archers and grappling hooks. Naval battles in pre-gun era generally came down to this:

Of course, in typical circumstances boarders wouldn't be attacking from a tiny little jolly-boat and also wouldn't have advantage of a magical strength potion...

Ballistae weren't that useful in naval battles as they required time to set up, and ships constantly move and are generally not stable firing platforms.

 

[ZehnWaters]

In most cases, just archers and grappling hooks. Naval battles in pre-gun era generally came down to this:

Of course, in typical circumstances boarders wouldn't be attacking from a tiny little jolly-boat and also wouldn't have advantage of a magical strength potion...

Ballistae weren't that useful in naval battles as they required time to set up, and ships constantly move and are generally not stable firing platforms.

Well that's boring lol

 

[Aldarion]

Well that's boring lol

Asterix? Boring?!

Preposterous! You must pay penance!

 

[ZehnWaters]

Asterix? Boring?!

Preposterous! You must pay penance!

Oh, not Asterix. Old-timey naval combat. Boarding? No projectiles?

 

[Olorgando]

In most cases, just archers and grappling hooks. Naval battles in pre-gun era generally came down to this:

As that galley clearly shows a ramming bow, and probably accurately so (René Goscinny and Albert Uderzo were sticklers for historical accuracy), that was another option in naval warfare for a long time.

 

[ZehnWaters]

As that galley clearly shows a ramming bow, and probably accurately so (René Goscinny and Albert Uderzo were sticklers for historical accuracy), that was another option in naval warfare for a long time.

Also true. And far more interesting in my opinion.

 

[Aldarion]

As that galley clearly shows a ramming bow, and probably accurately so (René Goscinny and Albert Uderzo were sticklers for historical accuracy), that was another option in naval warfare for a long time.

Oh, at the time, definitely. But ramming fell out of use as the ship construction changed from hull-first to ribs-first construction, which was far sturdier. In fact, I believe even late Roman navy may have abandoned ramming in favor of boarding.

"Ramming" was still used though... for boarding purposes. Later galleys had a boarding platform at the prow - much more practical than the corvus - and they would ram the enemy ship with it to allow the boarders to cross.

 

[Hisoka Morrow]

Oh, at the time, definitely. But ramming fell out of use as the ship construction changed from hull-first to ribs-first construction, which was far sturdier. In fact, I believe even late Roman navy may have abandoned ramming in favor of boarding.

"Ramming" was still used though... for boarding purposes. Later galleys had a boarding platform at the prow - much more practical than the corvus - and they would ram the enemy ship with it to allow the boarders to cross.

But here's the point, the Nuemenorean hadno reasons to use ram tactic since it's exclusively useful in naval battles and we all knew that Numenorean had almost no thassaly rivals. Arty batteries seemed to be the most preffered tactics for it's navy, right?

 

[Aldarion]

But here's the point, the Nuemenorean hadno reasons to use ram tactic since it's exclusively useful in naval battles and we all knew that Numenorean had almost no thassaly rivals. Arty batteries seemed to be the most preffered tactics for it's navy, right?

Yes.

It is very likely that Numenor has fought not a single naval battle in its history. Navy will have served merely for transport of ground forces, so they will have had no reason to develop specialized naval weapons - be it corvus, battering ram or something else.

They may have had artillery on ships, but that will have been used for sieges, not for naval combat. As I said, pre-gunpowder artillery was not viable for targeting moving targets such as ships.

 

[Hisoka Morrow]

...They may have had artillery on ships, but that will have been used for sieges, not for naval combat. As I said, pre-gunpowder artillery was not viable for targeting moving targets such as ships...

I'm pretty sure pre-gunpowder weapons had miltiple cases to be used as anti-moving targets, such as personnel, such as Romans's scorpions, Song dynasty's arcuballista, Alexendar's catapults or ballistas during his campiagns against Schytia, and so on. In addition, Numenor did have gunpowder weapons such as MLRS, correct me if I'm mistaken. To sum up, might Numenor have naval anti-personnel arty?

 

[Aldarion]

I'm pretty sure pre-gunpowder weapons had miltiple cases to be used as anti-moving targets, such as personnel, such as Romans's scorpions, Song dynasty's arcuballista, Alexendar's catapults or ballistas during his campiagns against Schytia, and so on. In addition, Numenor did have gunpowder weapons such as MLRS, correct me if I'm mistaken. To sum up, might Numenor have naval anti-personnel arty?

Torsion-powered artillery could be used in such a manner, yes, and it is technically possible for Numenoreans to have had it. I do not recall any mention of such artillery in Tolkien's work, however, though tension variants of ballistae may have been used instead (Numenoreans did have steel bows, after all). At any rate, such artillery was used in exclusively anti-personnel role, to suppress enemy crew prior to boarding. In sieges, some warships would mount larger stone-throwers, but these again were used into anti-personnel role - for suppression and decrenellation.

As I said, however: I do not recall any mention of such artillery in Tolkien's work or even any mention of Numenor ever fighting a naval battle - unless it happened during the Late Numenorean civil wars - meaning they will have had little reason to develop such artillery or even equip their ships with land-based versions of torsion artillery; assuming they had torsion artillery at all.

Gunpowder weaponry for Numenor only appears in the Lost Road, which is as non-canon as non-canon goes... in that same book Numenoreans also have airships, steam-powered ironclads and so on. In the "main canon", Numenoreans most likely deployed variants of Greek Fire as their ultimate naval weapon and also during sieges - variant of which Sauron then stole and used in the siege of Minas Tirith.

 

[ZehnWaters]

It just feels weird to call something a "powerful navy" when their main ability is...landing troops. Would Gondor have dealt with Umbar in naval combat? Ramming may have shown up then, though just for boarding purposes (by the sound of it) since their ships would have been sturdy.

 

[Aldarion]

It just feels weird to call something a "powerful navy" when their main ability is...landing troops. Would Gondor have dealt with Umbar in naval combat? Ramming may have shown up then, though just for boarding purposes (by the sound of it) since their ships would have been sturdy.

Numenor basically had naval dominance by default, as there was nobody to challenge it.

IIRC, Sauron didn't even have a navy until Corsairs of Umbar appeared.

Boarding could have been done by ramming - that is the reason why Mediterranean galleys had that pronounced prow, it was a boarding platform - but considering that coasts of Gondor faced ocean, I always saw their ships as being more akin to large longships. These also did boarding actions, but mostly by coming alongside the enemy and grappling him with hooks.