🕷️Shelob's inability to consume light...

[Úlairi]

This has always puzzled me, and became very apparent to me when I saw the movie today. Was Ungoliant's incredible ability to consume light itself an intrisic quality of an Umaiar (likely to be a Maia herself)?

The Silmarillion: Of the Flight of the Noldor
"With their whips of flame they smote asunder the webs of Ungoliant, and she quailed, and turned to flight, belching black vapours to cover her, and fleeing from the North she went down into Beleriand, and dwelt beneath Ered Gorgoroth, in that dark valley that was after called Nan Dungortheb, because of the horror that she bred there. For other foul creatures of spider form had dwelt there since the days of the delving of Angband, and she mated with them and devoured them; and even after Ungoliant herself departed, and went whither she would into the forgotten south of the world, her offspring abode there and wove hideous webs."

What these foul creatures are I do not know, perhaps some form of kelvar that we don't know of.

The Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers: Shelob's lair
" There agelong she had dwelt, an evil thing in spider-form, even such as one of old had lived in the Lands of the Elves in the West that is now under the Sea, such as Beren fought in the Mountains of Terror in Doriath, and so came to Lúthien upon the green sward amid the hemlocks in the moonlight long ago. How Shelob came there, flying from ruin, no tale tells , for out of the Dark Years few tales have come. But still she was there, who was there before Sauron, and before the first stone of Barad-dûr; and she served none but herself, drinking the blood of Elves and Men, bloated and grown fat with endless brooding on her feasts, weaving webs of shadow; for all living things were her food, and her vomit darkness. Far and wide her lesser broods, bastards of the miserable mates, her own offspring, that she slew, spread from glen to glen, from the Ephel Dúath to the eastern hills, to Dol Guldur and the fastnesses of Mirkwood. But none could rival her, Shelob the Great, last child of Ungoliant to trouble the unhappy world."

So, the darkness vomit was certainly a hereditary aspect of the nature of Shelob, and so was her hatred of the light.

The Silmarillion: Of the Darkening of Valinor
"But she had disowned her master, desiring to be mistress of her own lust, taking all things to herself to feed her emptiness; and she fled to the south, escaping the assaults of the Valar and the hunters of Oromë, for their vigilance had even been to the north, and the south was long unheeded. Thence she had crept towards the light of the Blessed Realm; for she hungered for light and hated it."

So, it is an inherent quality of anything that is incarnate in spider-form, and the vomiting of darkness as well. But why not consume the light? Shelob dared not to go near it.

The Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers: Shelob's Lair
"As soon as she had squeezed her soft squelching body and its folded limbs out of the upper exit from her lair, she moved with a horrible speed, now running on her creaking legs, now making a sudden bound. She was between Sam and his master. Either she did not see Sam, or she avoided him for the moment as the bearer of the light,..."

Now, the Phial contained the light of Eärendil, so, I would say it was relatively bright, and Torech Ungol would be dark, seeing as Shelob ate so much, would have had problems disgesting it all, and end up being a bulimic spider anyway! In which case it would be very dark!

So, my question is, if she has all these hereditay qualities herself, why does she have an inability in the consumption of light, unlike her former mother? She hates it like her mother did, but did not desire to eat it. Ungoliant even went closer to the Blessed Realm so that she consume more light from the Trees.

"Thence she had crept towards the light of the Blessed Realm;..."

Hmmm, well, I eagerly await your replies!

 

[Barliman Butterbur]

my question is, if she has all these hereditay qualities herself, why does she have an inability in the consumption of light, unlike her former mother? She hates it like her mother did, but did not desire to eat it. Hmmm, well, I eagerly await your replies!

My take: Tolkien goofed. You spotted an inconsistency that he didn't.

—Lotho

 

[Úlairi]

My take: Tolkien goofed. You spotted an inconsistency that he didn't.

—Lotho

Well, that would be unfortunate, and a very quick ending to a thread with a little potential. However, it is a definite possibility, I was hoping for some answers in HoME, but couldn't find them. Maybe I should look a little harder and dig a little deeper!

 

[Inderjit S]

Maybe she wasn't as powerful as her mother? Maybe it was fated that she couldn't handle the light of Galadriel's phial.

 

[BlackCaptain]

Yeah remember that it's the light of Earendil's silmaril in that phail... Perhaps it was too much light...

 

[Confusticated]

Ulairi, you beat me to it. This is on my list of threads to start from when I read LotR a few weeks ago.

It bothers me too that Shelob, unlike her mother, does not consume light.

These were not normal spiders... they had to be more like Ainu type spirits, I think. Even Shelob who had lived for so long can't have been just a beast?

Surely any offspring of Ungoliant would also consume light?

The idea that the light in the phial was too powerful, doesn't convince me but is similar to an idea I had. The nasty Ungoliant sucked holy light from the trees... this is as potent as light comes in Arda, but the Silmaril light may be different.

But I have supposed the best answer is that for whatever reason Ungoliant didn't pass this on to Shelob.haha!

It may have been over-looked by Tolkien but I don't think that it was, simply because it is so obvious... Ungoliant had existed for years when he wrote LotR. One explaination could be that Ungoliant devouring light was just a matter of personal taste. Perhaps if it had entered Shelob's mind to eat some light, she'd have found she liked it too.

But Earendil had a Silmaril which unlike the light of the Trees (it would seem) was hallowed and burned unclean hands. Would Ungoliant have enjoyed a Silmaril? I think it could have burned her inside. Could it be that Shelob sensed this? But I don't buy this. If the light in the phial had properties special to the hallowing of the Silmarilli, then Frodo and Sam should not have been able to handle it. But then... Beren handled a Silmaril... so who knows!

 

[Rangerdave]

Why would it be a mistake. Ungolante is almost certainly of the Maiar, while Shelob is only a spider. A big honkin' spider, but still a spider.

Plus, in no other instance in Tolkien's work is it found that the offspring of a Maia and "earthly ceature" shows the powers of the parent. I seriously doubt that any of the spiders spawned by Ungolante in Cirith Gorgoroth could consume light as their mother did. Why then should we expect a lesser reletive such as Shelob to have this ability?

If you want to take this to the ultimate degree, even the Vala prove this point. Just look at the legend of Aule and the Dwarves. Aule was the most powerful 'maker' in Arda but even he could not create independent life.


Only my opinion.
I might be wrong


RD

 

[Confusticated]

Sounds pretty good, RD

Well the other case we have of one of the Ainur having offspring is Melian and Luthien. Luthien did have great power in song like her mother had. On the other hand she didn't have any abilities than only Maiar had... such as arraying herself in form whenever she felt like it. I guess growing her hair long might have also been something she could only do because her mother was a Maia.

But if you go with the idea that Ungoliant being 100% Ainu is what allowed for her to devour light, then even her offspring with some Ainur blood may not be able to do it.

If one goes with the idea that Shelob would have the ability to consume light but she never did so, then we can wonder what caused Ungoliant to hunger for light. I find it easier to believe Ungoliant always hungered for light, that this was a part of who she was from the beginning. If that is the case, then it's most likely Shelob didn't have the ability. In which case, Ungoliant being 100% Ainu does seem to be the best answer.

 

[Úlairi]

Well the other case we have of one of the Ainur having offspring is Melian and Luthien. Luthien did have great power in song like her mother had. On the other hand she didn't have any abilities than only Maiar had... such as arraying herself in form whenever she felt like it. I guess growing her hair long might have also been something she could only do because her mother was a Maia.

But if you go with the idea that Ungoliant being 100% Ainu is what allowed for her to devour light, then even her offspring with some Ainur blood may not be able to do it.

If one goes with the idea that Shelob would have the ability to consume light but she never did so, then we can wonder what caused Ungoliant to hunger for light. I find it easier to believe Ungoliant always hungered for light, that this was a part of who she was from the beginning. If that is the case, then it's most likely Shelob didn't have the ability. In which case, Ungoliant being 100% Ainu does seem to be the best answer.

Yeah, she could be another Bombadil, but nevertheless, I personally believe that Shelob should have the same ability, I was going to use Lúthien as an example, and I have always believed Ungoliantë to indeed be of Maiar origin. She could overcome the might of Morgoth, and only an Ainur I believe with sufficient power would have the ability to do so.

When it was proposed that the Ring should go to Bombadil, it was the agreeance of the Council that even he would fall to the power of Sauron in the end. If Ungoliant was some sort of kelvar, as Bombadil was, then she shouldn't be able to stand against the might of even a Maia, the Valaraukar were a good example perhaps, and it was also the diminshed power of Melkor that Ungoliant sensed, but nevertheless, to take on the greatest spirit in Arda would require some strength.

 

[Confusticated]

I was unclear. I do not doubt that Ungoliant was an Ainu. What I ment was that her being 100 % Ainu whereas her offspring were not, could be an explaination for why she had an ability that Shelob did not. But this only if you believe Shelob did not have the ability.

If you think Shelob did have the ability, then why don't we hear about it, and even more so, why didn't she seek to devour the phial? The fact is she didn't seek to and that she was even put off by it, so she either could not have or did not want to devour it. Was this because it was Earendil's light? If so, then it would seem that either her ability to suck away light was inferior to her mother's or that she was less hungry (for light). I guess there is also the chance I mention above... that it was because the phial light came from Earendil who bore a hallowed Silmaril (or perhaps some process involving the phial itself) made it such that even her mother Ungoliant would not have dared touch it. But, we know Ungoliant did try to get the SIlmarils from Morgoth, and she was close enough to them to have sensed they were hallowed (saw them burning Morgoth's hand ). It could be Ungoliant was just more hungry than Shelob...allowing her to attempt to get some light that would have harmed her (she did, according to some, end up eating her own self... surely that hurt!) but Ungoliant had a specific hunger for light... I see no indication Shelob does, and the facts I consider are more supportive of the conclusion she does not. But this doesn't rule out her having the ability to do so.

So: I think she either did not have the ability, or that she had the ability but not the hunger.

 

[Úlairi]

I was unclear. I do not doubt that Ungoliant was an Ainu. What I ment was that her being 100 % Ainu whereas her offspring were not, could be an explaination for why she had an ability that Shelob did not. But this only if you believe Shelob did not have the ability.

Yes, I acknowledge that, I even mentioned in my first post that indeed, the reason Shelob could not do it was because she wasn't a full-blooded Maia, actually no I didn't, but I had thought of it. Interesting, hmmm.

So: I think she either did not have the ability, or that she had the ability but not the hunger.

Not the hunger? Highly improbable.

 

[Lantarion]

Originally posted by Nóm
What I ment was that her being 100 % Ainu whereas her offspring were not, could be an explaination for why she had an ability that Shelob did not.

A theory that I hold to be plausible is that Ungoliant, having mated with the foul creatures of Melkor in the First Age, had in effect thousands and thousands of grandchildren and descendants. Now, what I argued in another thread dealing with Ungoliant/Shelob was that Shelob was very probably a descendant of Ungoliant, but not necessarily her child, or even grandchild, or even great-grandchild. As Ungoliant mated with non-Ainuric beings, though she passed on her inherent qualities in some form to her children (now that is not a pretty image!), but as her descendants mated again with non-Ainuric beings, less and less of Ungoliant's original Ainuric qualities would be passed on in the 'genes' of her 'family'. They would be 'diluted', so to speak.

So the way I see it, Shelob (hmph I want a Quenya name to call her by! What is 'female spider' in Quenya? Ungwelien?? ) is a very distant descendant* of Ungoliant, and although her gigantic form and relative dark contours are reminiscent of her ancient kin (both Ungoliant and her unfortunate mates), in my reasoning I would say that she does not possess the same Ainuric (read 'magical') qualities that Ungoliant did.

*I deduce this from the fact that Shelob dwells in one of the most distant corners of known Middle-earth, whereas Ungoliant lived in Nan Dungortheb, in Beleriand. Now a gigantic spider would NOT have been able to migrate thousands upon thousands of miles without dying or being killed, so I assume that Ungoliant's new 'family' migrated inch by inch, very slowly towards Eriador, copulating all the while throughout the years; and so in time Shelob's 'parents' (eewwwwww) would have lived in a place probably close to Rhovanion or the dark Vales of Anduin perhaps, from where Shelob would have moved into Mirkwood (where she gave birth to the Giant Spiders there), and then moved on into the Ephel Dúath and her own little abode.

 

[Úlairi]

A theory that I hold to be plausible is that Ungoliant, having mated with the foul creatures of Melkor in the First Age, had in effect thousands and thousands of grandchildren and descendants. Now, what I argued in another thread dealing with Ungoliant/Shelob was that Shelob was very probably a descendant of Ungoliant, but not necessarily her child, or even grandchild, or even great-grandchild. As Ungoliant mated with non-Ainuric beings, though she passed on her inherent qualities in some form to her children (now that is not a pretty image!), but as her descendants mated again with non-Ainuric beings, less and less of Ungoliant's original Ainuric qualities would be passed on in the 'genes' of her 'family'. They would be 'diluted', so to speak.

So the way I see it, Shelob (hmph I want a Quenya name to call her by! What is 'female spider' in Quenya? Ungwelien?? ) is a very distant descendant* of Ungoliant, and although her gigantic form and relative dark contours are reminiscent of her ancient kin (both Ungoliant and her unfortunate mates), in my reasoning I would say that she does not possess the same Ainuric (read 'magical') qualities that Ungoliant did.

*I deduce this from the fact that Shelob dwells in one of the most distant corners of known Middle-earth, whereas Ungoliant lived in Nan Dungortheb, in Beleriand. Now a gigantic spider would NOT have been able to migrate thousands upon thousands of miles without dying or being killed, so I assume that Ungoliant's new 'family' migrated inch by inch, very slowly towards Eriador, copulating all the while throughout the years; and so in time Shelob's 'parents' (eewwwwww) would have lived in a place probably close to Rhovanion or the dark Vales of Anduin perhaps, from where Shelob would have moved into Mirkwood (where she gave birth to the Giant Spiders there), and then moved on into the Ephel Dúath and her own little abode.

All very plausible Lanty, but 'last child of Ungoliant' seemed pretty clear to me! Why'd you move the thread?

 

[Lantarion]

I moved it because the discussion is now leaning towards the very natures of Ainur, and other topics outside of the scape of the events in the LotR.

 

[Úlairi]

I moved it because the discussion is now leaning towards the very natures of Ainur, and other topics outside of the scape of the events in the LotR.

Very well, I will trust your judgement.

 

[Helcaraxë]

Ungolante is almost certainly of the Maiar, while Shelob is only a spider. A big honkin' spider, but still a spider.

RD

....an evil thing in spider form...

"In spider form" implies that she herself was not a spider.

MB

 

[Úlairi]

"In spider form" implies that she herself was not a spider.

MB

Extremely true, good find my friend.

 

[hamstar]

Not to bump a 20 year old thread, but here's another possible explanation: https://thetolkien.forum/threads/is...upon-the-nature-of-spiders.30995/#post-573782

tl;dr: Ungoliant consumed magical light, enabled her to create fëa-bearing (sentient) spider spawns, spawns hate and fear light like other such beings (e.g. orcs).