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Should they have given 🧝Arwen the extra scene?

Should they have given Arwen the extra scene?

  • Yes. They should have.

    Votes: 14 28.0%
  • No. They shouldn't have.

    Votes: 36 72.0%

  • Total voters
    50
So Glorfindel the Unique Elf who:

1. The only ELf EVER to come back East to ME from the Hall of Mandos
2. To kill a Balrog
3. To chase the Nazgul in the 2nd and 3rd ages

"happens" to find Aragorn, but it is absurd for Arwen to "happen" to find Aragorn in the movie.

Arwen is a COMPOSITE character, a standard technique when books are adapted into films. Its a shame that you do not understand this. Its a pity that you dont like this. But so be it.

When chosing the Fellowship Galadriel was not an option, so comparing her to Glorfindel is ridiculous. Comparing him to Legolas is not ridiculous since they were both options.

If Glorfindel had done ANYTHING else, after being introduced then you might have an argument, but he didnt. He was buried by his author. Thank you for the latest non-sequitor: Celeborn. I knew it would be a good one. Celeborn also was not an option for the Fellowship.

Sorry, I don't feel the need to demonstrate anything

That's obvious.
 

Well Harad, for the eleventy-first time, the fact is, is that ARWEN DIDN'T DO THESE THINGS!!! I wonder who can separate the book from the movie, to you they seem to morph together. Your arguments are rediculous because you are arguing for what never occured. You're arguing why the sky could be green and should have been green because God should have made it green just to give it more color...The fact is, is that the sky is blue and any arguments to the contrary are speculation and useless....JRR wrote all his characters a certain way, why should you as a Tolkien fan have such a problem with that? Your logic could be applied to many characters and could be taken to ludicrous lengths to pooh-pooh away any character....What defenders of JRR want is even a half-way decent portrayal of his characters in a movie that seems to proclaim itself as gospel rendition. Arwen is not one of those characters.
 
Gosh, this argument is so good I hate to get in the middle of it but......... first I must correct a mistake. Eol said, This is incorrect.
From FotR, Many Meetings, 'I thought that I saw a white figure that shone and did not grow dim like the others. Was that Glorfindel then?'
And Gandalf responds, 'Yes, you saw him for a moment as he is upon he other side: one of the mighty of the Firstborn. He is an Elf-lord of a house of princes...'


So Glorfindel didn't need no stinkin' fire to fight no stinkin' Nazgul. I still missed having him in the movie.

Harad, Eol versus Harad = Grond versus Harad in another thread at another time. Deja vu????

A couple of final points. Eol, just stick to the argument that the character Arwen wasn't in the Fords in the book. That is totally defensible, characterizations are for the reader to interpret and you can never say that the movie Arwen is "out of character for Tolkien" because that is in the eye of the reader. One may feel that Arwen in the movie is similar to Luthien in the book. Doesn't mean it's right in your eyes, but it definately suits Harad's eyes aka opinion. Lastly, no flame wars or nastiness allowed. Keep it clean and civil.

P. S. Thorin, Harad continues to argue characterizations. You cannot win this argument with him because it is a personal opinion matter. The suggested attack plan is to stick with the "It ain't in the book defense." No go out there and "Hunt some Orc!"
 
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ARWEN DIDN'T DO THESE THINGS!!!

in the book.

And?

Your point is?

That the film isnt a shot for shot rendering of the book?

I'll alert the media.

Any film that employs the technique of a composite character will have this "failing."

The book also doesnt start with Galadriel saying "The World Has Changed..."

GALADRIEL DOESNT DO THIS THING!

So?

You dont like this, you dont like Arwen, you dont like the film. That is your right. And its abundantly clear.

When you mistakenly conclude that the film is not a faithful ADAPTATION of JRRT thats where you stray into Unsupportedville.
 
Adaptation? Yes.
One heck of a try? Yes.
I think anyone will come any closer for the coming decennia? I wish, but I'm not expecting it.
A faithfull adaptation? Not IMHO.
 
So PJ missed the point of LOTR? How?

Which story did you think he was telling?
 
PJ missed the point of LOTR? Who said that? The film I saw was dealing with a Ring that had to be destroyed, so IMHO, the point of LOTR wasn't exactly missed.
A lot of the stories inside the main story didn't come back as strong as I wished in the movie or never at all. Which was a choice/decision that had to be made if one makes a movie I guess, so IMHO it wasn't that faithfull either.
An OPINION, see, mine if I need to add.
 
An "unfaithful" adaptation implies that it missed the point. If it didnt include everything that you wanted to see, that does not make it unfaithful, except in the strictest personal sense. If thats what you mean...
 


1) My point is, is that you make no sense trying to justify Arwen's distortion by trying to make it fit JRR Tolkien's LoTR instead of just admitting that it is a total fabrication but you liked it anyway.

2) I have not problem with making things up for characters. If PJ would have created more scenes with Arwen that were true to her character (which is what he has claimed to do through the whole movie) I would have had no problem. Galadriel saying "The world has changed.." Not out of character, not an earth shaking addition. You can't compare the that to Arwen, nor am I harping like: "Galadriel SHOULD have said that! What a line! Why didn't Tolkien make her say that? After all, being an elven queen and on of the most powerful, she should say such a thing. PJ's line is in the spirit of Tolkien, so...blah, blah blah."

I never said that the film was not a decent adaptation. Arwen's character is NOT a decent interpretation..Whether PJ succeeded in other areas is not the issue...He failed with Arwen...
 
1) My point is, is that you make no sense trying to justify Arwen's distortion by trying to make it fit JRR

It makes sense, it works cinematically, its a fabrication (I like invention better--fabrication sounds like "a lie" but it has the other meaning), and I like it.

All you say is "it isnt in the Book." Who is arguing this?

What I say is: it IS in the spirit of the book, it could have been in one of the many JRRT rewrites, since it is consistent with his characters.

At first you and your gaggle of critics said that she was a Warrior Maiden inconsistent with what a female Elf would be like in JRRT. Now that we have proven:

1. "warrior maiden" is NOT the thrust of her character is the movie: rather healer, enchantress, and helpmate

2. her character is consistent with that of Luthien

now...your only weak fallback: She's not in the book (I can almost hear the whine.)

This is the movie: its different from the book.

BTW remember that in the book Arwen's mother was fatally injured in an Orc ambush? Since Arwen is never given any ACTION role by JRRT, can't you imagine that she in fact did things like travel? And that she would travel armed in ME, if nothing else to try to avoid her mother's fate? Can you use your imagination? Can PJ use his?
 
Unfaithfull in the stricest personal sense? Yes.
My opinion? Yes.
A word I specifically added too.
 

Yes, it is different then the book...So stop trying to use the "spirit" of the book to justify what's made up. Gandalf could have flown or fought Sauron or cast more spells then he did (it was in the spirit of LoTR), or Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas could have caught up with the orc band and had one heck of a fight (it was in the spirit of LoTR that they could have done that), or Sam could have overtaken Gollum and killed him (it was in his spirit to do that, or Elrond, Galadriel and Glorfindel could have joined the army and combined their power with Gandalf's to fight Saruman and Sauron (it was would definitely be in the spirit of LoTR) Hey! The facts are, that regardeless of what is in the "spirit" of Tolkien, they never occured!!! Wouldja imagine that??

Yes, I can use my imagination...However whatever my mind "fabricates" or "falsely interprets" definitely does not change the reality of what my imagination is based on....Once again, you miss the point. Whether or not Arwen COULD have is not an issue...She did not and no matter how much I want to imagine something otherwise or what could have been, doesn't make it valid in anyway.

FACT: Justifying something fabricated by referring to Tolkien himself when it never occured, by saying it COULD have happened is a futile and redundant argument with no factual support...(How can you have support for something that never occured?)
FACT: Arwen was distorted in the movie with no regard to Tolkien's Arwen, but was made and combined with other characters to introduce her to the audience and create more of a foundation for an Aragorn/Arwen romance that you only get from the appendix in LoTR

FACT: PJ introduced her in a way to made her more exciting and cinematically appealing to a Tolkien ignorant audience regardeless of what Tolkien or his fans would have intended.

FACT: Despite what you and others have said, I believe that Tolkien made it quite plain how he felt about such alterations of his characters.

FACT: PJ's Arwen is nothing more then director's interpretation. It is not based on Tolkien's character whatsoever and should not be justified on how Tolkien could or should have cast her.
 
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Reviewing all the Arwen debates, there are 21 seperate positions that have been put forward against this adaptation. I now present a general summary of all 21 arguments used against PJ’s treatment of Arwen, with a commentary. I do this in part because we are continually repeating ourselves: but there are some debates that are more erudite than others. But also because the sheer length of this list of complaints is instructive. One by one they have (mostly) been shot down, and it is therefore interesting to see the NPWs coming back to the fundamentalist position.

Those of you opposing PJ's interpretation: I'd be interested to know which of these you are still sticking to!

Here's that summary:

A. Arwen didn’t do these things in the book, and any change is blasphemy/a fabrication.

This is the most generalised argument. On the one hand it is completely self-sustaining, but on the other hand it would be impossible to make a film on this basis. You cannot shoot every page of every chapter: this is totally unrealistic. ‘It never happened’ is stranger still: none of it happened – it’s all fiction. This is a fundamentalist argument, out of touch with cinematic reality. Boiled down, it says the film should never have been made. Most will adopt a softer stance:

B. This is too great a change.

This though is a statement of opinion, and needs to rest on (probably a number of) supporting claims. I will first state and discard a few of these, that don’t appear helpful to the discussion.

C. Changes that are expected in subsequent movies are unacceptable.

I discard this, because until the movie is released, this is supposition and hearsay.

D. PJ’s claims to faithfulness to the book are dishonest.

This is really a statement about something external to the film, and does not pertain specifically to the question. True or false, its irrelevant.

E. The changes are purely designed to appeal to male viewers, and thereby improve saleability. (A variant is the ‘appeasing feminists’ argument.)

Again, this is something external to the film. It is about the cause and not the effect. If for ‘bad’ motives the film was just as we all wanted, this would not be raised.

The more substantial reasons generally fall into three areas: character portrayal of Arwen, internal consistency of the film, and the impact of Arwen’s portrayal on other characters. There a few that don’t fit as well. Turning to the character portrayal first.

F. Arwen should be more passive. She should not play an active role of any kind.

This is disputed with the counter-claim that Luthien is a precedent for an active female elf. Arwen in the film is a composite character, taking in the roles of other characters (most notably Glorfindel), and this is a standard adaptation device. The point of debate then moves to:

G. It is not legitimate to composite Arwen with other characters.

However, it is a relatively minor change in the context of the story. Glorfindel appears in one chapter, Arwen has a very minor appearance in FotR, and little more in RotK. Even the account of Aragorn and Arwen in the appendix gives little depth of characterisation. One is left with no indication of Arwen’s personality, and what she does with her time. In this context, refusing to countenance composition is just a restatement of A. This is typically followed with:

H. This change is not in accord with Tolkien’s intent.

I merely note that this statement is not supported, beyond a general view that Tolkien would accept no changes to any of his characters. However, in selling the film rights unconditionally, he inevitably accepted the possibility. This theme is generally under-explored, and evidence from Tolkien’s letters would be welcome. The second argument in relation to Arwen’s characterisation runs:

I. Arwen is not like Luthien, or any elf-woman, in that she uses a sword. This makes her like Xena.

The usual point made here is that Arwen does no more than raise the sword, but it should be conceded that carrying the weapon implies a willingness to use it. This reflects the composition of Arwen with Glorfindel: this is a Glorfindel element. It is not dominant: the (limited) healing of Frodo, and power over the river, and her general bravery in out-riding the nine stand out more. The argument then becomes a more general point: is it unacceptable to allow elf-woman to fight; and we have to note the female archers in Lothlorien in the film. It seems to me that this reflective of the relative modernity of the film, and the changed perception of women’s role. Is an unwillingness to bear arms an immutable characteristic of female elves?

J. Arwen (as a parallel of Luthien) would not lure the Nazgul into a trap.

Luthien did not lure any of Morgoth’s servants into a trap, but devised other means to fulfil her quest. Can we be sure she would not? Glorfindel and Elrond between them set a trap in the book, and Glorfindel drove the nine into it. At worst, this is part of the Glorfindel composite.

K. Arwen’s conduct is generally undignified.

It is probably true that anyone opposing the enemy will have less dignity than someone who sits at home at Rivendell. Maybe pointing her sword at Aragorn went a little far, but it immediately established the intimacy of their relationship, with humour. Humour among elves is a feature of the books: this conveyed the lighter side of the character of elves. We now turn to the effects on other characters.

L. Arwen would not have risked herself for Frodo.

Perhaps the weakest argument. The fate of the ring-bearer, and therefore of Middle-Earth was at stake, and any of Elrond’s House would have risked danger to help. That Luthien only risked herself for Beren, does not mean Arwen has to be an exact copy.

M. It is a shame to lose Glorfindel.

Some people have a soft spot for Glorfindel, and would have liked to see him. As a statement of personal preference this is acceptable, but as has been argued Glorfindel makes a fleeting appearance overall, and is merely a generic elf. He is ripe for compositing.

N. Aragorn is made to look weaker, less able as a result of her role.

This argument is in two parts: that Arwen can sneak up on him in the wild; and that she ‘takes over’ looking after Aragorn. The first part perhaps has some truth, the second does not. They debate what to do as equals, and she takes Frodo because she can ride the fastest. Aragorn’s role in the film is hige, and his heroic credentials have already been firmly established at Weathertop. It should also be noted that in the book Glorfindel leads them to Rivendell, not Aragorn.

O. Frodo is weakened because he does not confront the 9.

I think this is a very valid point. Frodo is generally portrayed as weaker throughout the film, and this scene doesn’t help. The counter-argument has typically been that there are opportunities for him to look stronger elsewhere, and he shows resilience in abundance. Next we move onto the Internal Consistency arguments.

P. Arwen finding Aragorn was too great a coincidence. There were many others sent to look.

Glorfindel meets them in the book because he is sent along the road, while others look north and south. If Arwen is sent west, she is in the right area. In the film Sam and Aragorn are desperately looking for athelas by torchlight at great speed. They are not concealing themselves – it is no great leap that Arwen can spot them if she is near.

Q. Elrond would have prevented Arwen from going at all; he would not have risked her life.

From the book that sounds likely, although I note that the others involved in the search are not named. Who can say for certain that Arwen wasn’t sent? But assuming she wasn’t, Arwen in the film contains Glorfindel elements. THIS Arwen is clearly very suitable for the task. Finally we move onto minor arguments, that don’t really need a response. Right or wrong, most of these are details, and not central points.

R. The incantations at the Ford are wrong. (Who knows whether Elrond used incantations to summon the flood in the book?)

S. Poor dialogue: ‘If you want him, come and claim him’ (Aragorn’s famous ‘Lets hunt some orc’ doesn’t destroy his character)

T. Liv Tyler – someone didn’t like her. A minority position, I feel sure! And finally this:

U. Having made this adaptation, PJ under–utilised it. Arwen should have had a greater role. Wow - brave!

** VoK collapses from exhaustion, as smoke slowly rises from his fingertips **
 
"It didnt happen in the book."

A litany of frustration. Nor did Merry & Pippin steal fireworks and on and on...

When a film is adapted from a book, the advantages of the other medium come into play. The disadvantages as well.

Composite characters appear. Those characters NEVER exisit in the book. Therefore whenever that occurs you tiresome litany is redundant. The character, as such, didnt occur in the book: it follows that what the character did, didnt happen in the book.

The movie is different from the book. Does it have the same theme as the book, the same plotlines, the same characters. If it does then, its a faithful adaptation of the book. You can argue endlessly (you do) on whether a particular departure harms the adaptation in your mind. Remember, however, its all in you mind. Its not an objective fact.
 
True, you can take the "it didn't happen in the book" argument far...I agree. Gandalf bumping his head in didn't happen in the book, Merry and Pippen playing with fireworks and stealing vegetables like buffoons didn't happen either. As annoying and bothersome as they are, they are not totally out of character....Arwen's role, however, is taking something to the extreme and creating a different persona for a character that was never written to be that way...Plus in the creating of such a character, other characters ended up being morphed into her character, and thunder was stolen from other important characters....All this to boost a minor character into something different than what she was written as....I'm sorry, I can't see the justification for it...Maybe I can see a cinematic benefit for it, but from a Tolkien perspective?...Nope.

VofK, I don't recall anyone saying "any change is a blasphemy". I am probable the most diehard purist here and I've never said anything like that....Changes are inevitable and acceptable...within reason. Arwen's role change and the subsequent new role that she will be playing in the next two movies is unacceptable when measuring with the stick of JRR's LoTR.
 
Sorry Thorin you did say it was blasphemy. Although your English goes slightly skew-whiff here so I may have you wrong! [My emphasis - VoK]

Anyway I accept your less fundamentalist position - I think you should resist Grond's siren voice trying to lure you back onto the rocks of the 'blasphemy position'. On the other hand you now represent a moving target - you seem to get through anti-Arwen arguments like they're going out of fashion.
 
Hmm..I think I made myself pretty clear in my response as well as your quote of me...I have no problems with my english, I'm sorry you seem to.

I did say that Arwen's distortion is blasphemous to Tolkien and I will state that until my dying day when you pry my cold, dead fingers off of my all inclusive LoTR paperback....

What I did not say (in my quote and other reply)and what you DID say is that one of the arguments was that ANY change from the book was blasphemy. I believe I made that clear in my other posts that nobody (at least not me) said any such thing. Here is what you said:

quote: "Arwen didn’t do these things in the book, and any change is blasphemy/a fabrication. This is the most generalised argument. On the one hand it is completely self-sustaining, but on the other hand it would be impossible to make a film on this basis. You cannot shoot every page of every chapter: this is totally unrealistic. ‘It never happened’ is stranger still: none of it happened – it’s all fiction. This is a fundamentalist argument, out of touch with cinematic reality. Boiled down, it says the film should never have been made.

I rest my case....
 
Thorin

I wasn't trying to be offensive or anything. At worst perhaps I was having a little harmless fun at your expense. The sentence you posted was "It was blasphemed " which in my book is a typo or something.

Blasphemy is a term of some strength, considering we are talking about a work of fiction. Your language often sounds as though you believe Lord of the Rings is a historical or religious text. I get the emotion on one level as I too dearly love the JRRTs books, but if you are trying to make rational arguments based on it, I don't think it works.

I know you don't view any and every change as intolerable. My own lack of language skills are at fault here perhaps, in that my intention was to say "Arwen didn’t do these things in the book, and any change [to the portrayal of her character] is blasphemy/a fabrication." (i.e you may feel that other changes elsewhere are acceptable).

In any case in my original post, I did not wish to pin a view on you or anyone else if you do not hold it. Moreover, I think this little exchange may have been useful, as I guess my misunderstanding of your position stems from Grond urging you to issue a blanket condemnation of Arwen on the basis that its not in the book, period. You didn't take issue with him, hence my error.

Nevertheless, to my mind at least 20 other arguments have been posted, and very few of them have much merit. Every now and again someone else will pop up with a supposedly new revelation about how terrible Arwen is, and back round the houses we go. It would be good to explore some new points if we can. I'm sure we'll still disagree, but at least it will be less frustrating than endless repetion!

I'd like to chuck in this: She may not be the Arwen of the book, but how can you really tell? So little is written of her. In all that time in Lorien she could have been doing her stint of guard's duty with Haldir & co. Its not said, but she is only ever portrayed as dancing, falling in love, making a banner, feasting, and travelling. Your guess is as good as mine about what she did for the other 99.99% of her life.

If there are some notes anywhere in which Tolkien makes some specific comments on Noldorin society, and the role of their women-folk, that would at least strengthen your case.

C'mon sock it to me!!!
 
Harad, you say it is a mistake to conclude that the movie is not a faithful adaptation when that very determination is one purely of opinion. You also either completely missed my earlier points or choose not to address them. I personally have no problem with things that could have happened in the book but were not elucidated by Tolkien. The could easily include Galadriel starting the movie with "The World has Changed..." Merry and Pippin blowing themselves in fireworks (not in book but okay). Tom Bombadil out (okay because of time constraints). Hobbits getting swords from Aragorn (okay). All these things were changed for a reason of making the movie more easily understood by the audience and for the sake of time. Arwen at the Fords is an entirely different matter. It effects the dynamics of the characters much more significantly (to me... not to you.)

My reason for urging others to argue the "ain't in the book defense" is because that takes it out of the characterization defense which you have shown is easily attacked. I guess I should have had them argue the "it ain't in the book and it hurts a characterization defense". I honestly feel (and I know you disagree) that Arwen's scene at the Ford did "harm" to Frodo's character. I wasn't upset that Glorfindel was left out. I wasn't even upset that Arwen took his place. I was upset that Arwen rescued Frodo at a time in the book where Frodo rescued himself by defying the Nazgul. And, yes, he would have lost at the Fords without the help of the party and of Elrond and Gandalf but he defied them himself... not Gandalf, not Elrond, not Arwen, not Aragorn, not even Glorfindel... Frodo defied them by himself.
 

No offense taken I was not using the term "blasphemy" in a religious sense..Check the dictionary.

What Arwen has done in the rest of her life is pure speculation and is not part of the story (as is with everyone else not directly involved with the Fellowship...Regardless, it has nothing to do with placing Arwen at the Fords and replacing others (especially when she is not even supposed to be there) and twisting an actual passage of LoTR.

If PJ wanted to CREATE some scenes to bolster Arwen's role and give her more development, he could have done it and not offended any purists in the process....To have her doing what she did and then try and justify it by saying she COULD have done it is just plain useless speculation and it bothers me that for some reason I have to defend why it SHOULDN'T be in....Where the heck is the logic in that?

I don't think any reference from Tolkien is needed because I have nothing to prove. Why should I need to try and justify PJ's Arwen because it's possible she could have done what she did? Why the heck should I drag out every instance of Tolkien female roles to validate PJ's Arwen?? It's a mute point!

Hmmm...What she could have done against what she actually did? PJ's creation against JRR's reality? Who has more validation? Not only do I not need to prove anything, there is nothing to prove.

Okay, I will say this....Because Arwen was needed to be in the movie more, she could have replaced Glorfindel and found the Company...I could live with that...But throw him on the horse and let the rest take it's course...The riding, the defiant, sword-raising ,. "if you want him...blah,blah" spell casting, tears in her eyes, "Hang on Frodo" healing crap was just plain overkill and that is what I have the most problem with.
 
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