Should they have given 🧝Arwen the extra scene?

Harad · Feb 25, 2002

We will be proven wrong when the "definitive" LOTR movie is made...when do you suppose that will be?

PJ's LOTR:FOTR is both a faithful adaptation of the book and a critical, box office, and "awards" success. An achievement to be some of these, a miracle to be all.

Just imagine what the version that satisfies these guys will be like. There will be no second viewing since all will have died the first time, a look of smaug satisfaction on their faces, drool gathering in a puddle next to the discarded popcorn box.

Grond · Feb 25, 2002

And I give you Harad. He who is never wrong and is now the be all and end all of movie prognostication. Do you have a crystal ball that tells you the movie we envision would have been a failure? Why on Earth do you think that the Tolkien faithful are so disappointed?

It is because the movie could have been both more faithful to the book and still been the same movie. The sadness we feel comes from the realization that this is the only serious chance we had of seeing our vision on screen. And I, for one, have told you that it was a huge success and a great movie; but, it could have been better, and in making it better, PJ would have satisfied both you and us.

Harad, had Arwen not been in the movie until Rivendell, are you telling me you would be snubbing the movie? You can't seriously be insinuating that simply deleting the Arwen scene in favor of Glorfindel would have made the movie less successful. Get real. The work deserves better. And your argument doesn't hold water. The movie's successful but by your own admission, you would have preferred to see Frodo defy the Nazgul alone at the Fords.

Grond · Feb 25, 2002

Originally posted by Variag of Khand
So I can't have enjoyed the book unless I agree with you? Don't be so pompous! I am just as much a book-lover as anyone else. If you can't accept that there are different views, I think that is truly pathetic. To sneer 'you don't like the book as much as WE do' is a kindergarten argument. To think I just said you always argue fairly! There's one mistake I can freely admit.

If you want to have a film of Lord of the Rings you are going to have to make changes. Surely you can accept that? All I have tried to do is to say how I would judge the validity of such changes. I put them up for discussion, not as engraved on tablets of stone. If you don't like them, say why!!

My post was neither fair nor correct and I have deleted it. You are correct that my post was entirely judgemental and for that I am truly sorry. Not until I reread it did I realize that I had overstepped the bounds of not only objectivity but of fairplay as well. Sorry.

Harad · Feb 25, 2002

I say there are lots of way to make a good and faithful movie. I wouldnt have necessarily disliked a movie made in another way. I would have judged it, as I judge this one.

If I say I like one thing, you can not assume I will dislike something else. Its poor reasoning.

I believe PJ made his changes for reasons as I stated: cinematic, clearing up odd things in the book (Narsil for example), and to make it more accessible to a larger audience.

In these he largely succeeded.

Grond · Feb 25, 2002

Harad, I completely agree. He made a great movie that I think could have been better by keeping closer to the book and not expanded the Arwen character. I've been stating my point incorrectly. PJ made a wonderful movie that captured much of the essence of Middle-earth while adding plot and story lines that are not in the book. That's the new fight line and I'm sticking to it.

Harad · Feb 25, 2002

No fight there. I like it.

baraka · Feb 26, 2002

Originally posted by Grond
He made a great movie that I think could have been better by keeping closer to the book and not expanded the Arwen character. I've been stating my point incorrectly. PJ made a wonderful movie that captured much of the essence of Middle-earth while adding plot and story lines that are not in the book. That's the new fight line and I'm sticking to it.

I totally agree with your post. I would still have liked to see Glorfindel in the movie.

Harad · Feb 26, 2002

Wait til "Silmarrilion, the Movie" comes out. Glorfindel belongs in that story.

baraka · Feb 26, 2002

Silmarillion

Wow, a Silmarillion movie, now that´s something to really wonder about. I would very much like to see one made. (But not by the butcher PJ!)

Harad · Feb 26, 2002

Prime cuts.

baraka · Feb 26, 2002

Tom Bombadil, Tom Bombadillo, where are you?

Harad · Feb 27, 2002

their sister was Aredhel the White. She was younger in the years of the Eldar than her brothers; and when she was grown to full stature and beauty she was tall and strong, and loved much to ride and hunt in the forests. There she was often in the company of the sons of Fëanor, her kin; but to none was her heart's love given. Ar-Feiniel she was called, the White Lady of the Noldor, for she was pale though her hair was dark, and she was never arrayed but in silver and white.

Another JRRT creation that demonstrates how Arwen, not only was a great addition to the movie, but also was in the spirit of a JRRT composite character. Her attributes were NEVER told by JRRT, but her actions in the movie were accomplished by other characters.

baraka · Feb 27, 2002

Another JRRT creation that demonstrates how Arwen, not only was a great addition to the movie, but also was in the spirit of a JRRT composite character. Her attributes were NEVER told by JRRT, but her actions in the movie were accomplished by other characters.

I think i know your feelings about the "expanded" role of Arwen but i would have dearly loved to see Glorfindel or PJ vision of Glor.

Grond · Feb 27, 2002

I agree with you Harad. The movie Arwen was a wonderful, composite characterization which illustrated the strength, courage, knowledge, wisdom and power of the likes of Aredhel and Morwen and Luthien and Melian and other female characters from the Silmarillion and other JRRT writings which did not appear in the Lord of the Rings at all...never...not once. Nowhere in the LotR did any female elf character perform such deeds. So the accurate description of her character would be a composite Tolkien female Elf characterization that did not exist in the book. And there is nothing you can say Harad, that will change that.

Harad · Feb 27, 2002

composite Tolkien female Elf characterization that did not exist in the book.

I am not so foolish as to try to say anything that gainsays this demonstrably true statement.

I would point out that there are many things in the movie that are not in the book, some for good, some for ill.

I praise PJ for adding interesting new elements to his movie that fulfil the criterion such as "composite Tolkien female Elf..." That is a remarkable achievement when you think of it. To invent is one thing. One can easily go wrong. To invent something which "fits" is harder still. To get everyone to like it...that's impossible.

Grond · Feb 27, 2002

I too praise PJ for making a worth movie of JRRT. I praise his added scenes which aid in the understanding of the world. (wonderful visualizations of the sites of Middle-earth.) I praise his expansion of the narrative writing to detailed scenes that make the work more easily communicated to the movie goer.(Arwen/Aragorn love scene and the like.) What I condemn is his addition of a characterization that wasn't in the book and didn't work for most of the book readers.

Don't get me wrong. I enjoyed the movie and understand the reasoning behind expanded Arwen's character. I just do not agree with it and think the beauty of the movie and its success would not have changed one whit if Arwen had been portrayed as in the book. I do not think that her addition was an improvement over the book, I think it is a blatant failure on the part of PJ to "accurately" reflect the characterization in the book. Yes, there was Luthien and Morwen and Aredhel and Galadriel and Melian who were powerful Elf Women. Arwen was a powerful Elf woman in her own right; however, she never showed it in the books in the way it was portrayed by the author. No matter how hard you try to say it is in character and the spirit of Tolkien, you are wrong, whether you know it or not, or whether you like it or not.

Thorin · Feb 27, 2002

Forget it, Grond.

You've shown that not every NPW is stubborn, rude or fanatical and is willing to bend and compromise and it still doesn't help with Harad...That's because Harad is so stuck on defending PJ and berating those who stand up for Tolkien, that he doesn't realize he is as NPW as the rest of us....

When Harad starts admitting he just plain old likes PJ's Arwen more then Tolkien's, instead of trying to find minute facts to support the fabrication, then maybe you might get somewhere with him.

Harad · Feb 27, 2002

he just plain old likes PJ's Arwen more then Tolkien's,

I do I do. That's not saying much since JRRT's Arwen was a cardboard cutout of a character, whereas PJ's was flesh and blood.

Snaga · Feb 27, 2002

I have to say I am still at a loss to understand why THIS change is the one that provokes so much fury. There are a whole heap of changes, whole chapters excised, material plot changes, significant alterations to major characters etc, but its this minor change that really gets the NPWs steamed up. Its major impact is on minor characters (the Frodo issue aside), and it makes not a jot of difference to the plot. Go figure...

If I didn't have 100% respect for the clearly argued, rational and articulate expositions of you all I'd almost think it was because you knew about it before the film was ever released, and had already made up your mind months ago. Its a good job I'm not that cynical.

Harad · Feb 27, 2002

I knew about Arwen beforehand, and I was prepared to dislike it, or at least question it. But I found that I liked it at first viewing, and even more during subsequent viewings. So, in my case there was a pre-viewing attitude that changed.

Should they have given 🧝Arwen the extra scene?

Should they have given Arwen the extra scene?

Yes. They should have.

No. They shouldn't have.

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