Shutting of Aman

[Confusticated]

Were the Valar justified in fencing Valinor against the exiled Noldor?

 

[Poplartree]

Yes, because the Noldor then knew that it was a « success or death » thing for them against Morgoth.

 

[Turgon]

You know regardless of the actual curse laid upon the Noldor and such - it did seem a bit mean. Were they shutting the Noldor out or themselves in? And what about the rest of the poor buggers stuck in Middle-earth? Finarfin had a change of heart and returned to the Valar quite late in the day - it was possible other people might have done so too. Not giving them that choice seemed to me to be less than admirable considering these guys were the powers that be. I suppose you could look at it and say - well at least they didn't leave the door open so that they could get all high and mighty with any returning Noldor and say: We told you so! But it did kind of bother me that, for instance, when Turgon sent ships to try and find the way back, they were practically just left to die on the seas. You see the thing for me about forgiveness is that it should be unconditional - not something that people should have to suffer for before it's granted to them.

 

[Poplartree]

I wouldn't say it was about forgiveness, except for those who took part in the Kinslaying of Alqualondë, but more about letting the Noldor taking care of their own business. Like if they said " oh, so they think we interfere with their own business ? OK, great, they can do whatever they want, but we surely won't help these ingrateful basterds ! They wished to go to ME, so they sure can stay there if they like it so much !"

 

[Turgon]

But they really should have been thinking about all the rest of the people stuck in Middle-earth having to deal with Melkor without any aid, and who the rest of the Valar should have been taking care of. Everybody in Middle-earth who didn't happen to take place in the rebellion had to suffer because the Valar were a bit miffed? That's pretty poor form if you ask me. Apart from Ulmo, who was by far the most effective (and coolest) of the Valar, the rest of them really handled the whole Melkor affair badly. Seriously Eru - were this bunch the best you could come up with?

 

[YayGollum]

Yes. They made all of existence. They are being generous by allowing the elves to live on any of it. Also, they warned the Noldor before they left. It would have been evil of them to not keep them out, if they left after that, since they'd just be trying to scare them, I suppose.

 

[Bucky]

'It seemed a bit mean' - ROTFLMAO....

That's the problem with society today - no accountability for anybody's actions.

 

[Eärillë]

To me, the Valar were not completely unjustified, but neither were they justified in the matter. I chose "No" in the poll because my opinion seems to lean more towards it.

It is hard for me to explain things in good paragraphs, usually, so to avoid confusing you all, I shall just make lists of them. (Sorry. But I am never praised for eloquence anyway. )

Justified because:
1. The Noldor were sneaky. They rebelled firstly in silence, then just broke out, like the eruption of an unsuspected volcano. They followed Melkor, although it was not Melkor that had given them sanctuary. The Valar must feel hurt and betrayed, and thus sought to teach them a lesson.
2. A third of them (Maybe?) killed the Teleri. The fencing might be for those Thirdlings, for them to recover their equilibrium and start again. Without the ban, some of the more arrogant and spiteful Noldor could return just to harass them and then go back to Middle-earth again.

Unjustified because:
1. Like Turgon (I think? And perhaps someone else too) said, the Valar did not only fence out the Noldor, but also the other people of Middle-earth, including the yet-unborn Men.
2. The shadowy seas were a bit too much too. Melkor would not dare cross the open sea. Ulmo and his people lurked there. He might retry the Grinding Ice, so why had the Valar not thought of this?
3. Losses on Elven lives should have been able to be prevented. Could the enchantments not just turn them around back to Middle-earth instead of drowning them in pain and misery? And one ship drowned just in sight of that land, too.
4. They blockaded all communication from and to Middle-earth. Not even Melian, who was herself a Maia, could contact her brethren in Aman. So how were about the other Maiar that lived there side by side with the younger Children? Why did those who lived in relative bliss in Aman also shut them out?

I know, it all did not only focus on fencing the Noldor out, but many matters branched out from that single thing.

The Ainur, despite their unearthliness, were capable of 'earthy' feelings to some degree, and I rather view them as children learning the things together with Elves and Men and Dwarves. And as children, they also 'grew up' - mentally and emotionally. I just wish that the cost were not so high. (Oh, and, apparently, they had that possessive trait we had, too. They raised the Pelori and all to prevent Melkor from going back and destroying their home - again. It is one of the reason of that big defense system... What would you make of that, eh?)

Turgon: Sometimes someone must learn a lesson before he is forgiven. But I would agree that a lesson as painful as losses of life in seven ships was too much.

 

[Confusticated]

~bump~

"The message you have entered is too short. Please lengthen it to at least ten characters."

Not only has it denied my right to what is it called - efficiency - but how do you lengthen what is already complete! By adding junk like this to it? So more is better, quantity over quality, size does matter? Okay then - I have obeyed the wish of vBulletin.:*confused:

 

[Confusticated]

I wouldn't say it was about forgiveness, except for those who took part in the Kinslaying of Alqualondë, but more about letting the Noldor taking care of their own business. Like if they said " oh, so they think we interfere with their own business ? OK, great, they can do whatever they want, but we surely won't help these ingrateful basterds ! They wished to go to ME, so they sure can stay there if they like it so much !"

It was about forgiveness though. But even if it is what you say it is, then the Valar need to do some growing up. I mean understand the Noldor... but its as if they didn't even want to.

Justified because:
1. The Noldor were sneaky. They rebelled firstly in silence, then just broke out, like the eruption of an unsuspected volcano. They followed Melkor, although it was not Melkor that had given them sanctuary. The Valar must feel hurt and betrayed, and thus sought to teach them a lesson.
2. A third of them (Maybe?) killed the Teleri. The fencing might be for those Thirdlings, for them to recover their equilibrium and start again. Without the ban, some of the more arrogant and spiteful Noldor could return just to harass them and then go back to Middle-earth again.

As for the pirst point, I'm not sure it was unexpected given what had been going on among the Noldor.
What lesson are you saying the Valar needed to teach the Noldor? I'm sorry but it seems to have been one of "We are mighty, you need us, we we'll show you that we were right and we'll let it be so that you all were wrong and will regret your actions." If the Noldor had doubted the Valar's love then - hello stoopid Valar it is time to prove it! Show them you got their back, don't just let em suffer until their pride is so broken then come crawling and begging back. Would you want someone you love to come to you in such a state, or would you help the person, forgiving regardless, and stand by their side?

As for the Kinslaying, yes punishment of some kind does seem necessary..... but a lot of the Noldor who were caught up in that... they were caught up in it hadn't initiated it... some even fought against Feanorians. I can imagine many Noldor caught in the fighting... maybe grudgingly killer a telerin or Noldor elf who was going to kill him or his family or friend first. I bet lots of the Noldor killed on both sides. And I bet lots of them... having to live with this tragic event... was punishment enough. It was those feanorians who initiated the theft of the ships who were the most to blame.

Yes, you could argue they were given one last chance to turn back... but to turn back for what? To sit and wait for Morgoth to lead an army against them? Or to sit and wait and wonder if their families and friends were okay in Beleriand?

Like Turgon posted above.... those who sought forgiveness should have been given it when they wanted to go back and ask for it... not be denied it! Denying forgiveness to people you claim to love who are in need of it is tormenting them! That is exactly what it is!

 

[Gothmog]

Ok. I could just post Tolkien's justification for this matter but I will not :*p

As for the Shutting of Aman, the Valar were not ready to have a pitched battle with Melkor that could result in the total destruction of Arda. Melkor on the other hand would willingly destroy Arda to prevent himself from losing a battle with Manwe and the rest.

If the Noldor or any of the Grey or even Dark Elves were permitted to return to Aman it might have allowed Melkor to bring the war to the Valar before they were ready and result in the destruction that they wished to avoid.

When the ban was lifted, it was not the Valar but the Maiar (the 'lesser' Ainur of Arda) and the Elves of Aman who went to war with Melkor. Even so, Beleriand was destroyed. How much worse would it have been had the power of the Valar themselves been unleashed then?

 

[Mimzy]

I would say yes. I always saw it as punishment for killing the Teleri. I don't think they would have done it otherwise.

Of course they will eventually go back to Valinor in death.

 

[Andreth]

Onestly, I think that it was not; the role of the Valar in the world was to protect it and prepare it for the Children of the One, not to inhabit it for themselves without caring about Melkor and whoever tried to destroy it. The Noldor made terrible things of course ( I think especially of the kinslaying against the Teleri, the only one occurred before the banishment of the Noldor from Aman ), and obviously the Valar could choose if readmit the Noldor in their own realm or not; but... The war against Melkor was something they were supposed to take in charge, not the Noldor. So yes, they could shut Valinor against the Noldor (Even If I think it was not wise nor compassionate ) , but they could have at least attacked Morgoth on their own, without abandoning the world to his destruction just for their own feud with the Noldor... And, let me say that, Eru Iluvatar was of course intended to be one and the same with the God of Christianity , and it was Jesus Christ who pronounced the parable of the prodigal son... So, apparently, the Valar were not aware of their Master's teachings and beliefs. Bizarre.

 

[Turgon of Gondolin]

Yes. They made all of existence. They are being generous by allowing the elves to live on any of it. Also, they warned the Noldor before they left. It would have been evil of them to not keep them out, if they left after that, since they'd just be trying to scare them, I suppose.

To be clear, while the Music of the Ainur was the initial template of the universe it was Eru who caused their music to be made real, and the creation of the Children of Ilúvatar was his doing alone. So I don't think it's fair to say of the Valar that they allowed the Elves to live in Arda.

As for the larger question, of whether or not the Valar were justified in closing Aman, I think a large element of this action was doom. A recurring theme in Tolkien's works is doom (fate) as a power beyond the power of any beings living within Arda. So the ban of the Noldor, while pronounced by Manwë and Mandos was not necessarily a choice of their making, but something that they were moved to as one of the necessary evils that would lead to the ultimate purposes of Eru's design.