Silmarillion - To be taken as authority?

[Elthir]

No problem SeS, although it seems I either misremembered, or "interpreted" the draft scene in a way I now disagree with -- or at least, it doesn't seem as simple as I worded it above.

"It fell, its vast wings outspread crumpled and helpless on the earth ( . . . ) and over the ground a headless thing crawled away, snarling and sniveling, tearing at the cloak. Soon the black cloak too lay formless and still, and a long thin wail rent the air and vanished into the distance."
(JRRT draft text, The War of the Ring, The Battle of the Pelennor Fields). Even Christopher Tolkien comments: " . . . it was the beheading of the great bird that in itself caused the defeat and flight of the Lord of the Nazgul, deprived of its steed."

There are other brief, outline descriptions of this defeat, but I couldn't find one that appears to say that the falling wreck-of-the-bird "smashed" the WK into defeat. Problem is: I remember thinking it a bit odd, since the "bird" couldn't have been that high!

In any case I disagree with the way I worded things above

I could have sworn at least one description was that simple, but unless I stumble across something further . . . which is unlikely, as I don't plan to keep looking any time soon, especially for something that might not exist!

I mean, the bird was low enough to be beheaded . . . but violent enough in its "fall"? At least today's version of me thinks this seems to be pushing things a bit. On the other hand, I'm not sure why beheading the bird would "defeat" the Witch-king.

Yes it was "unhorsed" (unbirded), but it wasn't by tons of water this time 💫

On the third hand it's draft text

Hmm, "vast wings".

 

[Olorgando]

...
Hmm, "vast wings".

I just can't resist taking a pot-shot at one of the favorite points for heated discussions (together with Tom Bombadil).
Are these possibly some more Balrogs after retraining, paid for by the Mordor unemployment agency to get them "off the streets" and into "gainful employment" again?
😄😆🤣🤪

 

[Squint-eyed Southerner]

And Nazgûl were exceedingly tough: Legolas shot one out of the sky along the Anduin, and though it fell quite a distance, it wasn’t killed. (Nazgûl didn’t like fire, but that might be because it was not only painful, but it may have taken them some time to recover from the effects of burns.)

In reviewing this thread in the course of looking for something else, two of your statements here made me want to add:

1-- I didn't get the impression that the Winged Messenger fell quite so far; in fact it seemed to be flying directly overhead and low -- it was apparently about to land on the opposite bank, after all. A minor point, really, as we'd already seen them washed away by the great flood, without damage.

2 -- As to the fear of fire: I have to wonder if the Nazgul could be "burned"; it's true that Strider says "they do not love it, and fear those who wield it", but is this from fear of the fire itself, or because of the light it brings? Their power of fear being greatly increased in darkness is mentioned several times; they sometimes seem to be slightly weakened or disoriented by the light of the sun.

On the other hand, their robes are real robes, as Gandalf tells Frodo, and apparently not "magical" in any way, so vulnerable to burning. That might not seem very important, except for Gandalf's admittedly ambiguous, yet tantalizing, references to them, that they wear them to "give shape to their nothingness", that after losing them in the flood, they were forced to return to Mordor "empty and shapeless", and that their power to cause fear is increased when not wearing them. That last, and other statements regarding them, would indicate that they needed them as a sort of control over the fear they instill; their loss would hamper their effectiveness -- especially on a "stealth mission".

As for Gandalf's fire, referenced in the note, that was clearly of a different kind altogether; "like lightning that leaps from the hilltops" is the way Strider describes it, and "lightning" is echoed by Gandalf himself, in describing how people would have seen his fight with the Balrog. His "fire", whatever it is, is "magical" -- or "holy", depending on your viewpoint.

 

[Northman]

On one point, I'd offer, not a quibble, exactly, but a possible alternate idea: that the Dunedain of Cardolan, facing utter defeat, and what looked like extinction, but knowing the Witch-King and other Ringwraiths would "live" on, interred the Barrow-blades themselves, in fear of their being lost or destroyed, and in hopes that they would someday be recovered by enemies of Mordor. It would then make sense for the Witch-King to send the wights to guard against this.

I think in terms of the Dunedain interring the Barrow-blades for that purpose is almost certainly the truth, and Appendix A to LotR contains a suggestion that the mound the Hobbits enter is actually the resting place of the last prince of Cardolan line, slain in 1409 by the hosts out of Angmar. The section: Eriador, Arnor, and the Heirs of Isildur, in that appendix, tells us:

'It is said that the mounds of Tyrn Gorthad, as the Barrow-downs were called of old, are very ancient, and that many were built in the days of the old world of the First Age by the forefathers of the Edain, before they crossed the Blue Mountains into Beleriand, of which Lindon is all that now remains. Those hills were therefore revered by the Dunedain after their return; and there many of their lords and kings were buried. [Some say that the mound in which the Ring-bearer was imprisoned had been the grave of the last prince of Cardolan, who fell in the war of 1409.]'

Given this, and the the entry in The Peoples of Middle-earth p194 which states:

In Rhudaur an evil folk build dark forts out in the hills, while the remaining Dunedain out of Cardolan hold out in the Barrow Downs and the Forest

to me it paints the exact picture you're describing. The Witch-king may or may not have known about the weapons, I could go either way on that, since it might also have simply been a move made from spite, but it seems entirely clear to me that the Dunedain buried these blades for the purpose of future struggles against the same foe.

 

[Shadow]

I take it as authority. It’s the closest we’re ever going to get in terms of purity, and the DNA of what Tolkien wanted is still all there.

 

[Aukwrist]

In the movie forum, there was a huge discussion concerning taking only LoTr and The Hobbit as standard. Some felt that only these writings could be trusted and that all post-Tolkien works were interesting at best....

I did read somewhere that before Tolkien did LoTR he tried to get Silmarillion published, but to no avail, so he set it aside and started LoTR. After LoTR was published he turned his eyes to the Elder days of ME.

My point is, is that I think (though edited by Christopher Tolkien) the Silmarillion was pretty definitive on what Tolkien felt and agreed on concerning other matters. I think that Sil can be trusted as a definitive source along side Hobbit and LoTR.

Any comments?

As a purist with strong opinions on canonicity, I think the Sil counts as canonical, as it stands.

 

[Elthir]

My quick answer is no.

Not only was the Silmarillion not intended to be taken as official canon (that I'm aware of), but we
can get one step closer to the "authority" of the Elder Days (if still not arriving at definitive canon) --
the authority here being Tolkien himself.

And Christopher Tolkien went to great pains to make that possible. He also constructed The Children of Hurin for example, but again, as I see things, not to create an official canon version of the tale, but to create a version for the Reader Experience.

And as a reader, I thank him greatly!