Split thread: On Celebrimbor's lineage

[Confusticated]

*This thread was started by ithrynluin using our posts from the Greatest Elf thread*

Originally posted by ithrynluin
We cannot be sure whether Celebrimbor also received the teachings of Aulë, since we don't know if he was born in Valinor or later in Beleriand. But I suspect he was born in Beleriand, since there is no mention of ANY of the grandsons of Fëanor on their journey to Middle Earth.

Well in LotR appendix Celebrimbor is descendant of Feanor, he was made so in the second edition of LotR. Then Tolkien wrote two notes (please... when did he write these notes or is it known??) about this in a copy of RotK. He had underlined the name 'Feanor' in the Celebrimbor passage, and wrote about how exactly Celebrimbor came from Feanor. The first note concluded Curufin was the father of Celebrimbor and said that Celebrimbor's mother did not go into exile. So that woud mean Celebrimbor was born in Aman. In the second note he says Celebrimbor went into exile with his father. (Before this second edition Celebrimbor was a Noldo of Gondolin... exile or not I do not think it is said? Bu that's old news.)

Then Tolkien later (after 2nd edition) had Celebrimbor as a Telerin exile. But CT notes that had his father remembered that Celembrimbor as a descendant of Feanor had appeared in print 'he would undoubtedly have felt bound by it.' Tolkien wrote this version of Celebrimbor's history when writing about the Eldarin words for 'hand'. I do not know if this is published or anything else about it?

Around the same time as Tolkien wrote Celebrimbor as a Telerin exile, he wrote the essay 'Of Dwarves and Men', and in this Celebrimbor is a Sinda descending from Daeron.

Then in an excursus of The Shibboleth of Feanor:

Itaril, or in the longer form Itarille, was the only child in the third generation from Finwe to go with the exiles, save only Arothir son of Angrod brother of Finrod.

Itaril - Idril
Arothir - Orodreth

No mention of Celebrimbor, but an implication he was not born in Aman.

The thing is, I don't know which was later... this Shibboleth excursus or the notes he wrote in RotK copy which have Celebrimbor as an exile. Anyone know? (I think Shibboleth might be later... can someone help?) I also can not find any other mention of Celebrimbor's mother, but if such a thing exists... if she stated in another place to have remained in Aman (aside form the RotK note) that would strengthen the case for Celebrimbor being an exile.

My own opinion is that the bit about Idril and Orodreth being the only exiles of the Third Generation of Finwe, was simply Tolkien forgot about Celebrimbor at that moment. To me it seems like there are other places in Shibboleth where some little thing slips his mind. Anyhow... this coupled with the fact that Celebrimbor as a descendant of Feanor is in LotR appendix, leaves me of the opinion that Celebrimbor is the son of Curufin who went with him into exile.

 

[Inderjit S]

The thing is, I don't know which was later... this Shibboleth excursus or the notes he wrote in RotK copy which have Celebrimbor as an exile

posted by Nom

The Shibboleth was written in 1968 and since Celebrimbor's descendancy from Feanor was only present in the S. of LoTR (pub. 1966) and the form 'Maelor' for Maglor was used in the notes where Tolkien wrote it, on the copy of RoTK, we can conclude that this was a earlier text since 'Maelor' was a used in the Latter Quenta Silmarillion II (HoME 10) which was written 10-15 years earlier. The note on him being a Teleri was not actually in the Shibboeth of Feanor as you say it was a excursus to it, and was written after 1968, the date of the Shibboleth and was in the discussion about the C.E word 'kwar'. Also the reference to 'Finrod’s wife' in the text could be a reference to a pre-Amarie text, maybe when he was married to Meril, a Falathrim (Grey Annals (HoME 11) or somebody else.

I also can not find any other mention of Celebrimbor's mother, but if such a thing exists... if she stated in another place to have remained in Aman (aside form the RotK note) that would strengthen the case for Celebrimbor being an exile.

posted by Nom

If we are working with the view that Celebrimbor was a descendant of Feanor, which is desirable then we can only work with that statement in which his lineage is discussed that his mother remained in Aman.

My own opinion is that the bit about Idril and Orodreth being the only exiles of the Third Generation of Finwe, was simply Tolkien forgot about Celebrimbor at that moment

posted by Nom

There may be a couple of factors, Firstly, it seems from Tolkiens latter writings that the idea that he was son of Curufin was replaced with him being a Teler/Sinda (Of Dwarves and Men) and the fact that Tolkien may have forgotten the appearance in published form of him being a descendant of Feanor, and maybe because Tolkien doesn't go into great details in regards to Feanor's family in the Shibboleth, as he quit soon after. Who knows maybe we would have found out about the wives of Caranthir, Curufin and Maglor and other info. if he had continued.

 

[Confusticated]

The Shibboleth was written in 1968 and since Celebrimbor's descendancy from Feanor was only present in the S. of LoTR (pub. 1966) and the form 'Maelor' for Maglor was used in the notes where Tolkien wrote it, on the copy of RoTK, we can conclude that this was a earlier text since 'Maelor' was a used in the Latter Quenta Silmarillion II (HoME 10) which was written 10-15 years earlier. The note on him being a Teleri was not actually in the Shibboeth of Feanor as you say it was a excursus to it, and was written after 1968, the date of the Shibboleth and was in the discussion about the C.E word 'kwar'.

I did not say Celebrimbor was made a Teler in Shibboleth. I said I do not know everything about the discussion on kwar. Is it part of some other text that has been published? All I recall being told about it by CT is that it was written about the same time Of Dwarves and Men was written.

The only thing I said is in an excursus to Shibboleth is the mention of Idril and Orodreth being the only Third Generation of Finwe to go into exile. So Inder can you tell when the date of the note found in RotK regarding Celebrimbor?

If the Celebrimbor as an exile note was found in a second edition published in 1966, then Tolkien's note can not have been 10- 15 years earlier than Shibboleth which was written in 1968.

But maybe I misread this:
"...but against the passage in Corncerning Galadriel and Celeborn just cited my father notes that it would be better to 'make him a descendant of Feanor'. Thus in the Second Edition (1966) of The Lord of the Ring, at the end of the prefatory remarks to the Tale of Years of the Second Age, he added the sentence: 'Celebrimbor was lord of Eregion and greatest of their craftsman; he was descended from Feanor.'
On one of his copies of The Return of the King he underlined the name Feanor in this sentence..."

I take this to mean that the copy which he underlines Feanor in, and then followed up with the notes regarding Celebrimbor, was a second edition LotR, is this wrong?

Furthermore, regaring the statement in that first note, concerning Finrod and his wife, CT refers back to Grey Annals as 'long before'.

There may be a couple of factors, Firstly, it seems from Tolkiens latter writings that the idea that he was son of Curufin was replaced with him being a Teler/Sinda (Of Dwarves and Men)

This seems the likely reason for him having failed to mention Celebrimbor along with Idril and Orodreth as third generation of Finwe exiles in the Shibboleth excurus.

Finwe Pretty darn cute..I mean a great hot elf. *Begins to hum 'Finwe was a hottie, with his grey-blue eyes*

Stood alone (his grandsons must have ran?) when the terror of Melkor came to Formenos. Gave up his chance of retuning to life so his ex-wife could live again.

 

[Inderjit S]

Macho, Macho Man.

I did not say Celebrimbor was made a Teler in Shibboleth

A discrepancy on my part, in which forgot which essay it was written in, it was of course in the appendix to 'Of Dwarves and Men' and as you say it's a excursus to it. I really better start to think about what I right

Is it part of some other text that has been published? All I recall being told about it by CT is that it was written about the same time Of Dwarves and Men was written

C.T didn't publish a lot of Tolkiens works. I don’t think it can be published separately. It may have been written after since Tolkien in Letter 347; Letters of Tolkien refers to Celeborn as being a Teleri and this the writing on Celebrimbor being a Teleri would have been written around about this period. (the actual letter is date at 17. December, 1972). Of Dwarves and Men is written between the yrs 1967-70. (Mainly in '68.) It seems the idea of him being a Teleri would have been later, since C.T notes it as being a 'late writing' and Tolkien giving two radically different genealogies is questionable.

If the Celebrimbor as an exile note was found in a second edition published in 1966

I said the idea may have evolved then, or at that time. we get no date as to when it was written but the term 'Maelor' only used in the LQ2 implies it was written close to that period and 'Finrod’s wife'. Tolkien may not have thought to include it in the S.E which may not have been thought of yet, and was just writing some info. on his parentage, not specifically for the S.E, though it is said to be written close to or fllowing on from the writing of The Ellesar (U.T) and I don't know when that was written.

I take this to mean that the copy which he underlines Feanor in, and then followed up with the notes regarding Celebrimbor, was a second edition LotR, is this wrong?

Note, it is written that he 'added' to the already existing remark in the T.O.Y second age.

(his grandsons must have ran?)

I am sure reading somewhere in LQ (HoME 10) that when they came to Feanor Maedhros said they were off hunting when Morgoth came and came too late.

Note, I may or may not have been accurate about the statement that it was written 10-15 yrs before, it may have been re-written in consideration of Tolkiens re-writing (or edditng) of LoTR due to him having the secure the copyright to LoTR in 1965. i don't know, we are not given dates as to when it was written.

 

[Confusticated]

Note, it is written that he 'added' to the already existing remark in the T.O.Y second age.

I have noted that, I mistakenly thought that you had not, and you say soemthing in your last post which further confuses me if you noted this was from the Second Edition... I'll get to that below.

Earlier you say:

The Shibboleth was written in 1968 and since Celebrimbor's descendancy from Feanor was only present in the S. of LoTR (pub. 1966) and the form 'Maelor' for Maglor was used in the notes where Tolkien wrote it, on the copy of RoTK, we can conclude that this was a earlier text since 'Maelor' was a used in the Latter Quenta Silmarillion II (HoME 10) which was written 10-15 years earlier.

From which I concluded that you think this RotK Celebrimbor note was written not only earlier but much earlier than Shibboleth. You noting the spelling of Maglor's name being the spelling which was used 10 years earlier, is what gives me this impression. That is why I thought that you thought Tolkien did not make the note in a second edition. More relevant would have been to give the date in which Tolkien began to use the name 'Maglor', or tell that Tolkien has cesed to use Maelor at the time of Shibboleth. A thing I had not taken into consideration, and now that I note this it does seem most likely the RotK note preceded Shibboleth. Only Maglor is given in Shibboleth, was it only after this that the changes from Maelor to Maglor were made to LQ and Annals?

Also, this statement in your last post now confuses me:

Note, I may or may not have been accurate about the statement that it was written 10-15 yrs before, it may have been re-written in consideration of Tolkiens re-writing (or edditng) of LoTR due to him having the secure the copyright to LoTR in 1965. i don't know, we are not given dates as to when it was written.

If it was written in a Second Edition LR (1966) how in tarnation 'may' you have been accurate in saying it was written 10-15 years earlier than Shibboleth?

C.T didn't publish a lot of Tolkiens works.

Really?

It may have been written after since Tolkien in Letter 347; Letters of Tolkien refers to Celeborn as being a Teleri and this the writing on Celebrimbor being a Teleri would have been written around about this period. (the actual letter is date at 17. December, 1972).

Okay thanks, I didn't know about that letter. I think this does seem likely then, that the writing of Eldarin 'hand' was from the time of the Letter, or more near it, all I knew is that it was 1968 or later, as CT says when proving the passage.

So it it could be like this:

1) Celebrimbor made a descendant of Feanor

2) Tolkien Notes (1966-68) Celebrimbor was the son of Curufin who came with him in exile.

3) While writing Dwarves and Men (1968), Celebrimbor becomes a Sinda

4) Celebrinbor is a Sinda in Tolkien's mind when he writes Shibboleth (1968)

5) Then Celembrimbor becomes a Teler in writng about Eldarin 'hand' (after 68)

6) Celebrimbor is therefore said to be a Teler in the 72 letter.

Do you think so?

I am sure reading somewhere in LQ (HoME 10) that when they came to Feanor Maedhros said they were off hunting when Morgoth came and came too late.

Hmm... sort of sounds familiar but I'm not sure. If you happen on it, please let me know if you remember?

 

[Maedhros]

The greatest Elf ever

For info on the dates of Home See this:
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Stood alone (his grandsons must have ran?) when the terror of Melkor came to Formenos. Gave up his chance of retuning to life so his ex-wife could live again.

It is of course unthinkable that the first son of the first prince of the Ñoldor would have left Finwë alone.

From Morgoth's Ring: Later Quentas

§8 'My lord,' said Maedros to Manwë, 'it was the day of festival, but the king was heavy with grief at the departure of my father, a foreboding was on him. He would not go from the house. We were irked by the idleness and silence of the day, and we went riding towards the Green Hills. Our faces were northward, but suddenly we were aware that all was growing dim. The Light was failing. In dread we turned and rode back in haste, seeing great shadows rise up before us. But even as we drew near to Formenos the darkness came upon us; and in the midst was a blackness like a cloud that enveloped the house of Fëanor.
§9 'We heard the sound of great blows struck. Out of the cloud we saw a sudden flame of fire. And then there was one piercing cry. But when we urged on our horses they reared and cast us to the ground, and they fled away wild. We lay upon our faces without strength; for suddenly the cloud came on, and for a while we were blind. But it passed us by and moved away north at great speed. Melkor was there, we do not doubt. But not he alone! Some other power was with him, some huge evil: even as it passed it robbed us of all wit and will.
§10 'Darkness and blood! When we could move again we came to the house. There we found the king slain at the door. His head was crushed as with a great mace of iron. We found no others: all had fled, and he had stood alone, defiant. That is plain; for his sword lay beside him, twisted and untempered as if by lightning-stroke. All the house was broken and ravaged. Naught is left. The treasuries are empty. The chamber of iron is torn apart. The Silmarils are taken!'

Okay thanks, I didn't know about that letter.

I have look at that letter and I can find no reference to Celebrimbor. Can you quote it.

 

[Confusticated]

Thanks for giving that LQ quote, Maedhros.

As for the website you link to, it only gives dates of the major texts, and what I seek here is a date to the Notes in the RotK copy regarding Celebrimbor.

I don't know if anyone will argue Celebrimbor was not the son of Curufin and born in Valinor, but I'm now interested in knowing the date of those notes.

Maedhros, what do you make of Tolkien saying that Idril and Orodreth were the only third generation of Finwe to go into exile? Did Celebrimbor slip his mind, or was he at that time thinking Celebrimbor was a Sinda due to the story in Of Dwarves and Men?

A discrepancy on my part, in which forgot which essay it was written in, it was of course in the appendix to 'Of Dwarves and Men' and as you say it's a excursus to it.

What was?

 

[Inderjit S]

That is why I thought that you thought Tolkien did not make the note in a second edition. More relevant would have been to give the date in which Tolkien began to use the name 'Maglor', or tell that Tolkien has cesed to use Maelor at the time of Shibboleth. A thing I had not taken into consideration, and now that I note this it does seem most likely the RotK note preceded Shibboleth. Only Maglor is given in Shibboleth, was it only after this that the changes from Maelor to Maglor were made to LQ and Annals?

The form 'Maelor' is only used in the LQII (HoME 10), nowhere else. Also the refernece to Finrod's wife in Nargothrond. The only time that Finrod had a wife in Nargothrond was the LQ (HoME 11) and she was Meril, one of the Falathrim. This precedes the story of Amarie. Finrod is also several times said to have a unnamed wife, though this would have been around the same period, when Gil-Galad was his son. These reference would have been from the 1950's when Tolkien was still working on the Quenta Silmarillion and I think that Celebrimbor's incorporation may have come during this time, or maybe in the Making of the Genealogical Trees of the House of Finwe (1959). C.T notes that his father must have had the set of genealogical trees in front of him when writing the Shibboleth-could it be that there was no Celebrimbor on the family trees or that Tolkien had firmly rejected the idea by then?

If it was written in a Second Edition LR (1966) how in tarnation 'may' you have been accurate in saying it was written 10-15 years earlier than Shibboleth?

What I am trying to say is that I may or may not be correct in my assumption and more importantly that I do not fully back this idea. I have never said I do. (Not that you have ever said I have.) Just that I am open for the possiblity that I am incorrect, but I feel that it is more accurate that the note on Celebrimbor was written in the 5-0's but certainly by guess of 10-15 years, is a bit off, more like 6-12 years. (Good work on the list you have provided in regards to Tolkiens possible thoughts on the lineage of Celebrimbor.)

I have look at that letter and I can find no reference to Celebrimbor. Can you quote it.

I never said Celebrimbor was mentioned in Letter #347, just that Celeborn is mentioned as being a Teleri at the time and thus the version whereby Celebrimbor was a Teleri would be written around about that time.

 

[Confusticated]

What I am trying to say is that I may or may not be correct in my assumption and more importantly that I do not fully back this idea. I have never said I do. (Not that you have ever said I have.) Just that I am open for the possiblity that I am incorrect, but I feel that it is more accurate that the note on Celebrimbor was written in the 5-0's but certainly by guess of 10-15 years, is a bit off, more like 6-12 years. (Good work on the list you have provided in regards to Tolkiens possible thoughts on the lineage of Celebrimbor.)

So you think the RotK Celebrimbor note may not have been written in a Second Edition LotR? For if it was, then it can't be even 6 years earlier than Shibboleth. Or if it can, will you explain to me how?

I was open to that I was mistaken in my reading of CT's words regarding this note, and that perhaps it was not written in the Second Edition, but you seem to agree that it was, yet you contradict this. So simple question: Do you agree that the Celembrimbor RotK notes were made in a Second Edition?

I am saying it was written in a Second Edition and therefore no earlier than 1966. Since Tolkien uses Maelor in this, it shows he used Maelor in 1966+. Maybe it was at this time, or later that he made the late change to Maglor in LQ? If he made the change Maglor in LQ before 1966, then his use of Maelor in 1966+ shows that he was capable of going back to using Maelor, in which case his use of Maelor in that note is really no indication of the date the note was made, not unless maybe you compare it with his use of Maglor in Shibboleth or any other writings later than 1966 where he used Maglor while writing.

Maelor was also used in the late Lay of Leithian, I checked out CT's note of this and he says it was changed to Maglor but he doesn't think it was changed by his father... whatever that means? I haven't read the Lay.

Also the refernece to Finrod's wife in Nargothrond. The only time that Finrod had a wife in Nargothrond was the LQ (HoME 11) and she was Meril, one of the Falathrim. This precedes the story of Amarie.

It (the statement in the RotK notes)does not precede the story of Amarie. Amarie came about in the 50s, right? This note was no earlier than 1966. Therefore your claim that the only time Finrod had a wife in Nargothrond was in LQ, is wrong. He has a wife in Nargothrond in the RotK note. This does not mean the note was made during the time Finrod had a wife in LQ. Considering this was a note written in the Second Edition of LR, it means a return to that story, a change from the Amarie in Valinor story. Also, as I noted earlier, CT points out that the emergence in Annals of Finrod having no wife, was 'long before' the RotK note.

I never said Celebrimbor was mentioned in Letter #347, just that Celeborn is mentioned as being a Teleri at the time and thus the version whereby Celebrimbor was a Teleri would be written around about that time.

You said: "It may have been written after since Tolkien in Letter 347; Letters of Tolkien refers to Celeborn as being a Teleri and this the writing on Celebrimbor being a Teleri would have been written around about this period. (the actual letter is date at 17. December, 1972)."

What does Letter 347 say which is relevant to our discussion here? (I have not read it, of course).

 

[Inderjit S]

I'm not saying it was written in a S.E book. I'm writing that this note about his descendance from Feanor was first published in the S.E of LoTR not that the note was written in a RoTK S.E. I'm saying that the actual note on the parentage of Celebrimbor found in Of Dwarves and Men was written some time prior to the publishing of the S.E. It was written during the writing of the 'Ellesar'

The conception that Finrod didn't have a wife appears in the L.Q, not the Grey Annals. The L.Q was written in the late 1950's. The Grey Annals in 1951 or around about this time. The Grey Annals is where the story of Amarie first appears. Thus the note about the old conception of Amarie can be seen as being written long before the L.Q version in which he has a wife, in some cases named and in some unnamed. This was later rejected for the re-emergence of the Amarie story. She is never said to go to Beleriand, not even in the Shibboleth, which was certainly written after the note. Therefore my statement that the only place where it was written that Finrod had a wife in Nargothrond is in the L.Q is not 'wrong' since it is possible that the note here was written about that time, possibly when Tolkien was making the genealogical trees of the Finweans in 1959.

Since Tolkien uses Maelor in this, it shows he used Maelor in 1966

I see no evidence of 'Maglor' in the Shibboleth or later. It would contradict the basic etymology of the name, which was fully discussesed in the Shibboleth.

I am saying it was written in a Second Edition and therefore no earlier than 1966. Since Tolkien uses Maelor in this, it shows he used Maelor in 1966+. Maybe it was at this time, or later that he made the late change to Maglor in LQ

Tolkien had ceased working on the Quenta/Annals etc. Why would he go back to change such a trivial matter when there were more pressing matters at hand? The LQ was written some time prior to 1966. Maglor is also used in the Grey Annals, which was written after the LQ. It is also used in Tale of Years .

Maelor was also used in the late Lay of Leithian, I checked out CT's note of this and he says it was changed to Maglor but he doesn't think it was changed by his father... whatever that means? I haven't read the Lay.

I have no idea. I think the Lay is too ancient too play a part in this discussion anyway.

What does Letter 347 say which is relevant to our discussion here? (I have not read it, of course).

I am looking at when the note on Celebrimbor being a Teleri may have come about and it would have been at about this time since Celeborn is here a Teleri and the story of Celebrimbor being a Teleri would be dated at around about the same time, since the two go hand in hand, so to speak.