Split thread: Shape shifting abilities of the Ainur

[Celebthôl]

Shape shifting abilities of the Ainur

Ooooh, tough question, im not to sure, i mean he could have turned himself into a tyranosaurus rex and gobbled up Fingolfin, that i would concider cheating, or if he turned into a cloud of poison gas. . .

This is a split thread. The original thread can be found here

 

[Ithrynluin]

Well you certainly let your imagination run wild. I'm about to do the same.

Were there any restrictions on what the Ainur could turn into? We never see them doing anything like you described , yet...could they if they wanted to? Could Morgoth have turned into a 10 mile tall giant and stomped all over the Noldor in Beleriand (let's just leave aside the fact that he lost the ability to change shape before returning to Middle Earth)? And couldn't Sauron have done the same when facing Ar-Pharazon in the Second Age, or when being defeated by Luthien in the First?

 

[Celebthôl]

Quite possibly, but he would not have beaten Ar-Pharazon even if he was a 10 mile high giant.
He tryed to morph when fighting Huan, but he still didnt win.
Maybe the overall power in the being (i.e. Morgoth had LOADS in the beggining, and Sauron had a lot less) dictated how big etc they could get.

 

[Ithrynluin]

Maybe the Maiar had more limited capabilities then. But what about Melkor when he hadn't squandered all of his power? He could have done much more damage in Valinor before his flight, if he was slightly taller.

But why do you think Sauron could not beat Ar-Pharazon even if he was ridiculously tall? What could the Numenoreans do agains that?

And what about Balrogs?

Why didn't the Ainur just choose to have wings in some instances. Wouldn't that make it easier sometimes? For example, when Numenor began falling into the abyss, Sauron could have quickly changed his shape into a winged creature and flew off. That would have left him with one more chance of shape-shifting before he was doomed to remain in his terrible dark lord form.

 

[Lhunithiliel]

Why did I get the impression that the Ainur did have the ability to fly in the earliest days in Valinor much before and soon after the Trees..and then it seems Tolkien, changing the mythology, changed this feature as well...
In any case, I have always wondered..Why did they at all have to jump, climb, walk, run, ride etc...
And to think about how they entered Arda!!!!

 

[Ithrynluin]

I think they could always fly when they were unclad, if that could be called 'flying' at all, rather floating. I think Melian after the ruin of Doriath abandonded her Elvish body and just 'flew' back to Valinor.

Why did they at all have to jump, climb, walk, run, ride etc...

I don't think all of them were always clad in bodies of flesh.
I think the good, faithful Ainur would do this so as to be susceptible to the same 'troubles' as the Children of Eru. They did not want to seem 'aloof', and since they all lived in the same land, the Ainur would want to be as peers to the Elves I think, rather than their superiors. Of course, there was also the slight problem of Elves not seeing an Ainu who is 'hroa-less', so that might have been the main reason for them doing everything as if they needed their bodies.

But I'm wondering about the evil Ainur. Melkor was the greatest of them all. Now do you think that he could have assumed any shape he wanted, and thus do great evil to the Children? Or was there a 'you can only be that tall, and you cannot do this and this and this' rule?

 

[YayGollum]

Doobedoobedoo... I thought that they could only turn into things that matched their natures. As in, the ladies could only look like ladies and the guys could only look like guys. Little things like that. Even though it could be useful, Mel wouldn't be able to turn into some dinosaur or pile of gas because that wasn't in his nature. If those types of things were in his nature, he wouldn't look like a big and scary and godlike human type thing (I'm guessing).

 

[Lhunithiliel]

Truly a "brainstorm"

In continuation to your question... And how come that the Ainur knew what form was fair and which - terrifying? To me the shape = appearance of Ulmo or Osse was as terrifying as that of Melkor. Don't you think?

As for the Ainur chosing a bodily form like that of the Elves ...I think it comes from that remote moment when Eru showed them his Firstborn children and the Ainur marvelled their exquisite beauty.
Still.... what was the criteria to name them "beautiful"... I wonder? Wasn't their bodiless shape beautiful enough...provided that it was the only one they knew before entering Arda? That was surely the shape of Eru too - NO body...perhaps some floating shape of sparkling and glowing matter floating in space... Can you imagine it? I can!... And it gives such a freedom! ...But unfortunately, the Ainur who entered Arda were "doomed" to never leave it until it was utterly destroyed. And I suppose that meant to them a "goodbye" to their "floating" cosmic shape. So, I suppose the supreme ones, those who became Valar, chose the shape of the beautiful creatures that were yet to come - the Children of Eru. The others - the lesser spirits perhaps took the shapes of all other creatures that were described to have inhabitted ME - eagles, trees...etc.
Morgoth - too, only he was the master of darkness and fire and of chaos and this was perhaps his "style of fashion"

What I was impressed in BOLT1 was that it is many time hinted that the Valar were of a very big shape in comparison to the Elves. Well....Gods must look like Gods!

 

[Ithrynluin]

Originally posted by YayGollum
Doobedoobedoo... I thought that they could only turn into things that matched their natures. As in, the ladies could only look like ladies and the guys could only look like guys.

Isn't there more to nature than just gender? Look at Sauron for example. He turned into a bat, a wolf, and a fair-looking emissary from the Valar (I imagine he looked as one of the Noldor in that guise, perhaps even nobler). Now you could say that turning into the first two things was part of his nature, as in: he was evil and abominable, and those animals were the same. But what about Sauron - Annatar, the lord of gifts? Was that in his nature too?

But if what you say is near the mark, could the Balrogs for example have turned into anything else than fiery demons then?

Hmmm, maybe there were only two aspects of a certain Ainu's shape - the good and the evil, and this is really the only shape they can take, with slight variations. Sauron's 'good' shape would then be Annatar, and his 'evil' shape would be his dark lord form or his bat/wolf incarnations. And perhaps the Balrogs, had they not joined Melkor's service, would have been fair fire beings, similar to Arien.

What do you think?

Originally posted by Lhunithiliel
And how come that the Ainur knew what form was fair and which - terrifying? To me the shape = appearance of Ulmo or Osse was as terrifying as that of Melkor. Don't you think?

I think the appearance of both the good and the evil Ainur was terrifying. But the good form was rather awe inspiring and the evil form was fear inspiring. Or so I believe.

I guess we still haven't come to the bottom of the whole 'Why couldn't Morgoth turn into a 10 mile high Dark Lord and annihilate all around him' issue. Anyone like to tackle this?

 

[Eriol]

I would think there is a limit to the amount of matter that a spirit can manipulate; this limit is proportional to the spirit's native power. Morgoth could therefore make a bigger body than another Valar before he squandered his native power on corruption and domination of other wills. If we don't assume a limit on the spiritual ability of "moving matter", i.e., if we think that the power of spirit over matter is unlimited, then Morgoth could change the orbit of the Earth and take it away from the Sun, or turn it upside down, or all other kinds of weird stuff. Also, the "labors" of the Valar to shape the world would be less fathomable; Aulë would simply will the mountains into place. I think it is more reasonable to admit that spirits have power over matter, but only a limited amount, and a localized power.

That means Morgoth could not "mobilize" the amount of matter needed to make a 10-mile high body.

I also think there is a difference between the "incarnation" of the evil guys and the "raiments" of the good Ainur; wasn't there a thread about that? "Does Morgoth sleep?", or something like it.

 

[Lhunithiliel]

I think the material world of Arda imposed limits upon the Ainur concerning the shape and the size and the powers ... That world was governed by certain internal physical laws, as initially perhaps laid by the Music, hence - by Iluvatar, and those laws could not I guess permit the existence of a 10-mile creature or another one that plays with the mounatains as if they were some toys.... I guess things like gravity and the other laws of physics (known to us) did exist on Arda to hold its matter, therefore Morgoth or any one else of the Valar were limited as far as the size of their bodies is concerned because of some proportions that must exist in the material world..... THOUGH they do seem to be described as much bigger than the Elves and Men.

 

[YayGollum]

Well, didn't that The Silmarillion book say that Sauron was the most powerful of Mel's little minions? That's what I thought. Maybe he had wolfish and battish characteristics in his nature. Why not? The fact that he was good to start out with explains the Annatar thing. When he lost a little power, he couldn't turn into that anymore. Lesser things like the balrogs were just big and scary fire looking things. Wasn't that lady in charge of the sun just a good type of them? She had firey characteristics. I don't understand how Mel could turn himself into the pile of poisonous gas. How can you have that kind of nature? Animals and certain types of people or talents make more sense than that.

 

[Confusticated]

I don't see any reason that an Ainu wouldn't be able to array themself as a gas.

I believe the balrogs had become incarnate.

The reason Sauron could take on any shape he wanted, is the same reason all the Ainur in Arda (except in special cases were they become like an incarnate) could. They are spirits, their form, when they put on one, is like clothing, and it can be in any shape they want.

The idea that each has a good form and a bad form, makes no sense to me.

Yavanna has arrayed herself as a tree.

I suppose the size limit of the shapes the Ainur wore went hand in hand with their level of power. You could wear a plastic bag or a suit made out of apple skins, but you could not wear a bus.

From UT:

And the wave came towards him, and upon it lay a mist of shadow. Then suddenly as it drew near it curled, and broke, and rushed forward in long arms of foam; but where it had broken there stood dark against the rising storm a living shape of great height and majesty.
Then Tuor bowed in reverence, for it seemed to him that he beheld a mighty king. A tall crown he wore like silver, from which his long hair fell down as foam glimmering in the dusk and as he cast back the grey mantle that hung about him like a mist, behold! he was clad in a gleaming coat, close-fitted as the mail of mighty fish, and in a kirtle of deep green that flashed and flickered with sea-fire as he strode slowly towards the land. In this manner the Dweller of the Deep, whom the Noldor name Ulmo, Lord of Waters, showed himself to Tuor son of Huor of the House of Hador beneath Vinyamar.

Long hair 'as foam'. Mantle hung about him like mist. He also gave Tuor a mist-cloak. But this description of Ulmo and his arrival sounds to me very liquid. If Ulmo could wear water.... mist... why not steam, gas? Of course Ulmo is a spirit of water which has a gas form, but Morgoth had originally all kinds of power, and before he lost it, I wouldn't be surpised if he could array himself in a water-like form, or any other.


Of course by the time of the Fingolfin battle Morgoth did not have the ability to change his shape, but thats already been pointed out.

 

[Lhunithiliel]

As it seems, most of the the Gods, when they entered Arda, took the shape of the Elves......
So, I am about to ask the MOST STUPID QUESTION EVER! ......

Does it mean that the Valar had pointed ears?

LOL ****Lhun hides far away****

 

[Ithrynluin]

The idea that each has a good form and a bad form, makes no sense to me.

Why does that make no sense to you? All the Ainur arrayed themselves according to their nature - Yavanna changed into a tree, the Balrogs were spirits of fire, and were accordingly arrayed in flames, Ulmo was clothed in his favourite element...

Arien is just as fiery as the Balrogs. But she is not evil, and does not inspire fear and terror in people, though if she were evil, I think she'd be very similar to a Balrog.

But the only one we really see taking on the two opposite sides of the stick is Sauron (Morgoth too probably, though we never get a description of him in Valinor). We see him shift into a few evil forms (the wolf, the bat), and his true evil form is probably a dark lord/sorcerer. His good form is that of a noble human/elf like being, very king-like in bearing and appearance. I believe all this reflects his character and evil or good is only an aspect of that character.

We never see any Ainu taking a shape that wouldn't fit their nature. I'm not necessarily saying they couldn't turn into a plastic bag or some other nonsense that is completely not in accord with their nature, I'm saying they simply wouldn't do it.

 

[Helcaraxë]

I seem to recall Melkor turning into a thundercloud.

MB

 

[Úlairi]

Why does that make no sense to you? All the Ainur arrayed themselves according to their nature - Yavanna changed into a tree, the Balrogs were spirits of fire, and were accordingly arrayed in flames, Ulmo was clothed in his favourite element...

Arien is just as fiery as the Balrogs. But she is not evil, and does not inspire fear and terror in people, though if she were evil, I think she'd be very similar to a Balrog.

But the only one we really see taking on the two opposite sides of the stick is Sauron (Morgoth too probably, though we never get a description of him in Valinor). We see him shift into a few evil forms (the wolf, the bat), and his true evil form is probably a dark lord/sorcerer. His good form is that of a noble human/elf like being, very king-like in bearing and appearance. I believe all this reflects his character and evil or good is only an aspect of that character.

We never see any Ainu taking a shape that wouldn't fit their nature. I'm not necessarily saying they couldn't turn into a plastic bag or some other nonsense that is completely not in accord with their nature, I'm saying they simply wouldn't do it.

Actually, I disagree, form is indeed form, irrelevant of its nature. Melkor in the beginning became proud, and he (presumably) didn't take on a thaur () form until he descended into Arda himself. Also, there is the idea of the Yin-Yang, no creature is completely evil, it is impossible. Not even the Orks. The form isn't good or bad, it is interpreted (or seen) that way. What is to say that something is good or bad without the existence of relativity? The world itself is relative, everything comparable. The only reason we see bad forms is because there are 'fairer, brighter and prettier (getting carried away now )' forms to compare them with!