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Tal-Elmar as the Witch-King?

Tal-Elmar can’t be the Witch King.
Here’s why
The Truth about Tom Bombadil
From a rec.arts.books.tolkien posting dated 3 May 1996.
At last, the mystery of Tom Bombadil's identity has been solved.
Ready?
Tom Bombadil and the Witch-king of Angmar are the same person.
1. We never hear of Tom at all during the whole of the First Age. The Nine Rings aren't forged until the Second Age. QED.
2. You never see the two of them together.
3. In the first part of Fellowship of the Ring, the Nazgul are sent to the Shire to look for the wandering Baggins. Interestingly, Tom says to Frodo at the dinner-table: "...I was waiting for you. We heard news of you, and learned that you were wandering... But Tom had an errand there, that he dared not hinder" (Fellowship p.137 hardback, emphasis mine: note the fear Tom has of his master, Sauron!).
4. In Tom's questioning of the Hobbits, JRRT notes that "there was a glint in his eyes when he heard of the Riders." (Fellowship p. 144) I think he was concerned that his double-life might have been noticed. Interestingly, Tom immediately changes the subject of conversation!

Furthermore, the One Ring had no effect on Tom - which seems consistent with Tolkien's observations about how the Nazgul would have handled the same priceless object (Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, #246): "They were... in no way deceived as to the real lordship of the Ring."
5. It's also interesting to note that Tom could see Frodo clearly while Frodo was wearing the Ring (Fellowship p. 144 hardback) - just as the Witch-king could see Frodo clearly while he was wearing the Ring at Weathertop! (Fellowship p. 208 hardback)
6. Perhaps most damning, however, is the incident with the Barrow-wights (Fellowship pp. 151-155), where Tom - with nothing more than a few simple words (p. 154) - commands the Barrow-wight to leave. And it does, without argument. Why would the Wight be so completely under Tom's control? Because in his alternate guise as the Witch-king of Angmar, Tom ordered the Wight to inhabit the barrow in the first place! Turning to Return of the King, Appendix A, p. 321, "evil spirits out of Angmar... entered into the deserted mounds and dwelt there." Obviously the Witch-king was reponsible for sending the wights there; just as obviously, the Witch-king (disguised as Tom) would be capable of ordering them to leave!

(This is related to another passage, which has since been brought to my attention. On Fellowship page 158 hardback, Tom is guiding the Hobbits back towards the Road when he gazes towards the borders of Cardolan. "Tom said that it had once been the boundary of a kingdom, but a very long time ago. He seemed to remember something sad about it, and would not say much." Since Tom, as the Witch-king, was the one who destroyed the kingdom of Cardolan, it's little wonder that he wouldn't say much about his involvement. Perhaps his remembering "something sad" reveals some remorse at being the instrument of Cardolan's destruction...?)
...Yep: I think we have an airtight case here. :)
...It's worth noting that, after the Witch-king was dead, Gandalf said he was "going to have a long talk with Bombadil" (Return of the King, p. 275). Curiously, he never tells anyone about the meeting later... and he's right there at the Grey Havens at the end of the book, undelayed it seems by long conversation. I think we can therefore theorize that Gandalf made it to the Old Forest, but that Tom (once the so-called "Witch-king" had died) was nowhere to be found!
...Of course, all this brings up the curiosity of motive. What would make the Witch-King of Angmar sport such a double identity? I suppose that the Witch-king, once of proud Numenorean ancestry, felt trapped by the guise of evil which Sauron had tricked him into, and in the fullness of time forged this alternate identity for himself so that he could occasionally feel happy, helpful, noble, and more at one with himself and his lineage. The situation is perhaps analagous to a crossdresser who, feeling trapped in a man's body, would occasionally assume the identity of a woman. It therefore makes sense that the Witch-king's other identity would be so peculiarly enigmatic, and perhaps sheds light on JRRT's observation in Letters #144: "And even in a mythical Age there must be some enigmas, as there always are. Tom Bombadil is one (intentionally)."
...Who else would be aware of Tom's double-life, I wonder? Since Tom repeatedly claims to have been around "before the river and the trees", and indeed even claims to be older than the Ents (Fellowship p. 142), surely the eldest of the Elves would know he was lying. Elrond plays along with Tom in public, being kind enough not to reveal his secret, but also seems to know that Tom and the Witch-king are one and the same; hence his refusal to give the Ring to Tom for safekeeping (Fellowship p. 278-9): "Power to defy the Enemy is not in him."


RD
:p
 
There are holes in that theory big enough to drive a truck through, but it is interesting nonetheless.
 
I like the theory Rangerdave posted. . . :D I definitely think that whoever came up with that needs some psychological help!:rolleyes:
 
Interesting idea but it's most certainly not an "air-tight" case.

1) Fear was a constant companion following the Nazgul. None of the Hobbits were in any kind of fear while in the house of Bombadil.
2) The Nazgul could not be seen by the eyes of the living. They could only be seen if they wore physical clothing. The appearance of Bombadil was not one merely of cloth; he had an obvious physical body.
3) Recovering the Ring was the goal of the Witch-king. Once he had it in hand do you really believe he'd just let it go again, or deal with it as if it were just a mere trinket or toy, as he did when given it by Frodo? No, he was a total slave to that Ring, as were all the Nazgul. No way would he have just let it go, let alone so casually as Bombadil did.

There; an air-tight case against Bombadil=Witch-king.
 
I see this discussion has diverged into a discussion of a nonsensical idea.

I would much rather the discussion turn back to the original idea, rather then a discussion about a notion that lacks credibility or sense.
 
I'm pretty sure Rangerdave posted that as a joke, which is what I am sure it was originally written as, and that's the manner I posted in as well. . . I think it's a very funny, nonsensical idea, which obviously is not meant to be true at all.
 
Well, I just read the story in HoME & then the story here.......

I think he's probably right because why else would Tolkien bother writing that story & especially then?

Remember, the Appendices were going to be bigger, correct? Then he shelved them until 1966.......

A couple of questions:

How would Sauron get Tal-Elmar the Ring if he were in Numenor?

I don't understand the signifigance of changing the date of that King though. Granted, I was suffering from insomnia when I read it........

I found the most compelling part of the arguement the part about it mirroring the hostage thing with Sauron himself.
 
The Nazgûl appeared long before Sauron went to Númenór.

I think Tolkien wrote 'Tal-elmar' to act as a tale of the 'Men of Darkness' and give the coming of the Númenóreans from their p.o.v. If he at any time wrote it so he could explain the origin of the W-K then wouldn't he have said so?

Remember, the Appendices were going to be bigger, correct

Yes. But it would have cost too much. Some of the stuff from U.T (The T.A part) may have appeared in the Appendix.
 
The Nazgûl appeared long before Sauron went to Númenór

That's my point.......

How would Tal-Elmar get the Ring?

That's the weak point in the theory.

Tal would have to conveniently return to Middle-earth & somehow get into a position where he gets in contact with Sauron or another of the Nazgul, despite the fact that he was in Numenorean lands, far from Sauron.
Of course, one of the 3 'Black Numenoreans' who became Nazgul could've easily been in Numenorean territory around where Tal-Elmar showed up upon returning to Middle-earth (a MUST in receiving a Ring of Power).

Another point to make it doubtful is whether some non-Numenorean would rise to a position of power among the Numenoreans to be well known enough to catch Sauron's attention.......

And THAT sounds a bit far-fetched to me.


The other thing:

Does it really matter who The Witch-King WAS?

I know who he was, at least the part that most mattered........

He was The Lord Of The Nazgul. ;)

Come North in disguise to destroy the North Kingdom & The Dunedain Of The North.

Prior to that, I bet his thinking was pretty much along the lines of The Mouth Of Sauron:

He probably didn't remember who he had been & if he did, he didn't want to remember........
 
There are several weaknesses in the theory.

Who are the 'Eothraim'? A reference to the Marachian tribes of Rhovanion? Must be a made up name.

Also Elmar's people may not be Easterlings. It is likely that they are Marachians. They are allied with Númenór (the Númenóreans were plotting to take over the land with the 'cruels' of the North) and the 'demons' who made their weapons may have been Dwarves.
 
Éothraim

Inderjit S said:
Who are the 'Eothraim'? A reference to the Marachian tribes of Rhovanion? Must be a made up name.
The term comes from MERP (Middle-earth Role Playing). Herendil thinks the author is referring to either the Northmen, or the remnant of them gathered by Marhwini in the Vales of Anduin after the defeat in the Battle of the Plains in 1856.
 
Talking about the identity of the Witch-King, I should have pursued it with you, but thought it best to gather more info on it first, I have that info now and indeed believe that if Tolkien wanted to use a Númenórean for the Witch-King of Angmar, he would have indeed used Herumor or Fuinur. As for it saying late in the Second Age, who is to say that the Úlairi weren't sent to Harad (after they had become Kings there and were deceived into Sauron's doing) to make the others join them? Very probable. It also supports my theory that the Herumor of The New Shadow and the Herumor of Harad are one and the same, and is the Witch-King inhabiting another incarnate body. I will present my findings when I can be bothered. ;)
However, I am 100% certain if Tolkien was going to use a link, he'd use Herumor. ;)
 

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