The Arrival of the 🌳Ents:

[Ent]

THE ARRIVAL THE ENTS AND AWAKENING OF THE TREES:
(8/6/2022 - This post has now been revised a bit to include clarification between the Ents and the Trees and the Elves' work upon both.)

There seems to be no dispute that the Ents are of Yavanna’s origination during the Song of the Ainur before the beginning. To use my own phrase (because I’ve not seen it used elsewhere), they could rightly be called “children of Yavanna” if one wished to do so.

However, for some reason there seems to be a debate concerning the Elves’ involvement in the Ents' awakening - their ‘coming to life’ as some seem to think the Elves actually did - creating them - and that the event Treebeard shares in the Lord Of The Rings is incompatible with the statements of the Silmarillion account. We will respond to that perceived inconsistency in this writing.

The following background is provided from Quenta Silmarillion: Chapter 2: Of Aulë and Yavanna:.
It includes text, and brief commentary, so the needed material is available without need for looking it up.

I include the origin (making) of the Dwarves by Aulë, as well, to demonstrate that Ilúvatar brings forth things consistent with his own will and desire, in his own way, and at his own time, which will be important later in the discussion.

The Dwarves’ Origin:
We know Aulë made (not created) the Dwarves, and Eru accepted them, though to be held in a state of sleep until their time for awakening.

We read:
“But Ilúvatar spoke again and said: ‘Even as I gave being to the thoughts of the Ainur at the beginning of the World, so now I have taken up thy desire and given to it a place therein;’”

Ilúvatar, applies the words “…so now”. This brings his actions into current time – the present tense. Here, he actually adds to that which he is and will continue to be ‘showing forth’ from the original Singing of the Ainur. (It is progressive). The dwarves were not a part or result of those original creative themes.

An argument might be made against this, since Ilúvatar starts with the words “Even as…”. Some may want to see he thus “equates” his creative decision then with his creative decision regarding the Dwarves. That is, it is all part of the original Song themes.

Not so, however.
The meaning is: “Just as I determined THEN to give being to the thoughts sung at that time, so NOW at this time I give being to your desire regarding these dwarves.” He separates his actions “in time”.

Again, as Aulë begs for mercy, since he was doing what he should not be (rebellious as he was then), Ilúvatar says “‘Thy offer I accepted even as it was made. Dost thou not see that these things have now a life of their own, and speak with their own voices?”(1)

The life is granted by grace at Aulë’s humility. From this we see Eru does things according to his own will and desire, including grace, as he wishes. This will be important later when we get to the Elves’ involvement.

The Ents’ Origin:
Yavanna sought out Manwe as we know, because of her concern over all her own thought added at the original Song, and what great harm would be done to the things of the earth, driven mostly because Aulë’s made her aware of his making of the Dwarves (and Eru’s ultimate acceptance of them into the living). They would have no love for living and growing things. She falters in her faith in Eru's and his declaration that all that was sung would BE.

We read:
. “And she was not appeased, but grieved in heart, fearing what might be done upon Middle-earth in days to come. Therefore she went before Manwë, and she did not betray the counsel of Aulë, but she said: ‘King of Arda, is it true, as Aulë hath said to me, that the Children when they come shall have dominion over all the things of my labour, to do as they will therewith?’
. ‘It is true,’ said Manwë. ‘But why dost thou ask, for thou hadst no need of the teaching of Aulë?’(1)

We know the trees are of her making in the Singing, because she says to Manwë:
. "All my works are dear to me."

. She goes on:
“All have their worth,’ said Yavanna, ‘and each contributes to the worth of the others. But the kelvar can flee or defend themselves, whereas the olvar that grow cannot. And among these I hold trees dear. Long in the growing, swift shall they be in the felling, and unless they pay toll with fruit upon bough little mourned in their passing. So I see in my thought. Would that the trees might speak on behalf of all things that have roots, and punish those that wrong them!’
. ‘This is a strange thought,’ said Manwë.
. ‘Yet it was in the Song,’ said Yavanna. ‘For while thou wert in the heavens and with Ulmo built the clouds and poured out the rains, I lifted up the branches of great trees to receive them, and some sang to Ilúvatar amid the wind and the rain.’(1)

So Yavanna’s desire for ‘talking trees’ was not a ‘later desire’, but was granted by Ilúvatar from the beginning, to be shown forth in its time.

Manwë later brings the clarification provided him by Ilúvatar back to Yavanna: -
. “Then Manwë sat silent, and the thought of Yavanna that she had put into his heart grew and unfolded; and it was beheld by Ilúvatar. Then it seemed to Manwë that the Song rose once more about him, and he heeded now many things therein that though he had heard them he had not heeded before. And at last the Vision was renewed, but it was not now remote, for he was himself within it, and yet he saw that all was upheld by the hand of Ilúvatar; and the hand entered in, and from it came forth many wonders that had until then been hidden from him in the hearts of the Ainur. -
. Then Manwë awoke, and he went down to Yavanna upon Ezellohar, and he sat beside her beneath the Two Trees. And Manwë said: ‘O Kementári, Eru hath spoken, saying: “Do then any of the Valar suppose that I did not hear all the Song, even the least sound of the least voice? Behold! When the Children awake, then the thought of Yavanna will awake also, and it will summon spirits from afar, and they will go among the kelvar and the olvar, and some will dwell therein, and be held in reverence, and their just anger shall be feared.(1)

The origin of the Ents, a combination of Trees with “spirits from afar”, is in Yavanna’s thoughts as her part of the Song before anything is brought forth.

Again we see Eru acts in different ways as it suits him - as he sees fit!

The Perceived Inconsistency:
The 'Awakening' of the Ents and of the Trees "by the Elves": Here, we look to the Lord Of The Rings.

From this some people seem to feel that the Elves are 'creating'. Some also seem to feel that the Elves 'awaken' both the Ents, and the Trees.

Let's see what's really happening.

Fangorn speaks:
. ‘Some of my KIN look just like trees now, and need something great to rouse them; and they speak only in whispers. But some of my TREES are limb-lithe, and many can talk to me. Elves began it, of course, waking TREES up and teaching them to speak and learning their tree-talk. They always wished to talk to everything, the old Elves did.(2)

Elsewhere, Fangorn says:
. "...it was the Elves that cured US (Ents) of dumbness long ago, and that was a great gift that cannot be forgotten." (Note: 'dumbness' here means 'muteness', not 'ignorance.)

Let's look at this carefully.
Fangorn makes a very clear distinction between the Ents and what Elves do for them, and the Trees. And in neither case does he indicate the Elves 'create', but they 'cure' or 'awaken'.

As was noted in SIL above, the Children of Illuvatar would awake first, then Yavanna’s thought would go forward bringing the ‘spirits from afar’, some of which would dwell in BOTH the kelvar and the olvar. (This should be noted, as it explains much about other things in the lore.)

This statement by Treebeard in LoTR, should work TOGETHER WITH SIL regarding the showing forth of Eru as declared in the Song. There should be no inconsistency for debate.

And there isn't.
How then?

It is said by some “The elves cannot create life, therefore this is irreconcilable.”

Others have said “Tolkien himself said Treebeard was just wrong when he said that.” (To which I answer ‘please show me where, I cannot find it – though he DID write in multiple of his letters that “evil cannot create.”. So I won't deal with this part until I see it really needs to be.)

So dealing with the Elves and their 'creating' - the solution is really quite simple.

Are the Elves really ‘creating’ here, or do the trees already have life in themselves?

Both the living trees and the living beasts (animals) have already been brought forth by Eru. The Elves are not ‘creating’ life in the Ents or trees at all.

The 'spirits from afar' indwelt trees and they BECAME Ents. (No longer just 'trees'). In this case, the Elvs are Eru’s TOOL used to ‘cure them of dumbness’ in their time, they already having been inhabited by ‘the spirits from afar’ drawn by the thought of Yavanna.

In the case of the Trees, we have a different picture. The Elves were Eru's TOOL to actually 'awaken' these (not 'give them life'), just as Treebeard said, and teach them to talk and learn their 'tree-talk.'

But again, the Trees already had life in themselves. The Ents were 'creating' nothing.

So the Elves in both cases, with slightly different application, are Eru's TOOLS in the next step of the 'showing forth.'

The Elves' powers to speak, to cure of muteness, to teach, and to 'awaken' are simply gifts given by Eru in his creation of his children.

This use of beings as tools in Eru's work is, by the way, completely consistent with J.R.R. Tolkien’s background in faith which many declare ”colors his works unavoidably.” (I do not expound upon this here.)

CONCLUSIONS:
1. The Dwarves originate from the making of Aulë then the ‘permission of life’, granted by Ilúvatar, after the original Song - put to sleep by Ilúvatar (after they were already given life), and set aside to be “shown forth in their time” along with the rest.

2. The trees arise out of Yavanna's addition to the Song. They are living things.

3. The Ents are trees indwelt by the 'spirits from afar' that Yavanna's thought calls forth. (other creatures and growing things of the earth are also indwelt by those ‘spirits from afar’). The Ents could accurately be called “children of Yavanna”.

4. The Elves were Ilúvatar’s tool – or agent – in the curing of the Ents of dumbness (muteness) following their indwelling by the ’spirits from afar’. Before that inhabiting they were living Trees.

5. The Elves were also Ilúvatar’s tool in 'awakening' other of the living trees, teaching them to talk, and learning their tree' talk. Eru is able to do as he wishes with regard to ‘how things are shown forth’.

6. There is no conflict between the statements in The Silmarillion and the Lord Of The Rings regarding how the Ents originate or awaken.

(1) Tolkien, J.R.R.. The Silmarillion: HarperCollins. Kindle Edition.)
(2) Tolkien, J.R.R.. The Lord of the Rings: One Volume HMH Books. Kindle Edition.

 

[Elthir]

I'll try a bit of a hasty response, but my take is that the Elves began waking trees up, taught trees
to speak, and learned their "tree-talk" -- because the old Elves wished to talk to "everything" --
including Ents as well, who the Elves cured of dumbness.

Entish itself was described as a language "unlike all others" in Appendix F (and not to be confused
with fragments of Elf-speech strung together in Ent-fashion). It was also said to be simpler in the
Elder Days (at least in a draft letter, letter number 247).

 

[Ent]

In my 'hastiness', and having no responses prior to this one from friend @Elthir, I confess:
I grew a pair of leaves, tidied it up a bit, and posted this in 3 other places as an "Essay".
My assumption, since it hadn't been shredded to date, was that it was close enough in consideration to pass along.

SO... I am "editing" the above by replacing it all with the "essay" format I posted elsewhere, "just because". (I THINK i can do that.)

Feel free to continue to remark away... I will have it replaced shortly.

I'll try a bit of a hasty response, but my take is that the Elves began waking trees up, taught trees
to speak, and learned their "tree-talk" -- because the old Elves wished to talk to "everything" --
including Ents as well, who the Elves cured of dumbness.

Entish itself was described as a language "unlike all others" in Appendix F (and not to be confused
with fragments of Elf-speech strung together in Ent-fashion). It was also said to be simpler in the
Elder Days (at least in a draft letter, letter number 247).

Indeed, this is the reason Treebeard cites in LoTR. It deals with their 'awakening', rather than with their 'origin' as some try to make it apply to.
From the Elves' perspective, that was their thinking, unknown to them that their desire was given them by Illuvatar, to act as his tools in the event.
It was also the 'fact' from the point of view of the Ents, as they did not know their own 'origins' either... only the events of their awakening.

Precisely why there is no "disconnect" between SIL and LoTR's statements, as some try to claim.

 

[Elthir]

And just for possible clarity, my position (so far at least) is that the Elves did not awaken Ents.
They cured the Ents of dumbness.

The Elves began "awaking" trees however, wanting to talk to them as well.

 

[Ent]

And just for possible clarity, my position (so far at least) is that the Elves did not awaken Ents.
They cured the Ents of dumbness.

The Elves began "awaking" trees however, wanting to talk to them as well.

OK thank you for the clarification.

And just for possible clarity, my position (so far at least) is that the Elves did not awaken Ents.
They cured the Ents of dumbness.

The Elves began "awaking" trees however, wanting to talk to them as well.

Pondering this further, and doing a deeper dive into the exact language used in SIL, I can see different possible alternatives to what I have written, one of which may lead in the direction of the position you hold.

What i hear you saying is the Ents are those who were 'trees indwelt by the spirits from afar.' These still needed to be 'cured from dumbness' by the Elves. however. (I can't quite determine where the source of this need for 'curing' comes from however.)

SEPARATELY from that, the Elves also 'awakened (regular) trees' that hadn't been 'indwelt' so they could teach them to speak, and learn their tree-talk.

Fangorn does make a clear distinction between his "kin" who have become sluggish, and "his trees" that are limb-lithe and can only be heard in whispers.

Do I have your distinction correct here?

Conclusions 1,2 and 4 hold up in any case, but text and conclusion 3 would need revision under any of the alternatives I now see possible.


Can you tell me from what text or how we arrive at the need for the Ents to be 'cured of dumbness' by the Elves?
The way I currently read it, the 'spirits from afar' would have cared for that, and I don't see the Elves involved in that part - only with the dealing with the (regular ole') trees.

Thanks.

 

[Elthir]

Hi. I'm basing some of my post above on Treebeard's comment about him taking more kindly to Elves than to others, the Ent noting that the Elves cured the Ents of dumbness long ago, "and that was a great gift that cannot be forgotten" (chapter Treebeard).

Also, the description in Appendix F: "They were known to the Eldar in ancient days, and to the Eldar indeed ascribed not their own language but the desire for speech." Appendix F, Of Other Races

If I have time, I'll explain my fuller position, as it involves some "stuff" outside of The Lord of the Rings itself.

 

[Ent]

Hi. I'm basing some of my post above on Treebeard's comment about him taking more kindly to Elves than to others, the Ent noting that the Elves cured the Ents of dumbness long ago, "and that was a great gift that cannot be forgotten" (chapter Treebeard).

Also, the description in Appendix F: "They were known to the Eldar in ancient days, and to the Eldar indeed ascribed not their own language but the desire for speech." Appendix F, Of Other Races

If I have time, I'll explain my fuller position, as it involves some "stuff" outside of The Lord of the Rings itself.

Thank you for this much as a start..!
If you find time so be it. For now, I'm off to rethinking based on the new thoughts formulating as it is.

 

[Elbereth Vala Varda]

Pondering this further, and doing a deeper dive into the exact language used in SIL, I can see different possible alternatives to what I have written, one of which may lead in the direction of the position you hold.

What i hear you saying is the Ents are those who were 'trees indwelt by the spirits from afar.' These still needed to be 'cured from dumbness' by the Elves. however. (I can't quite determine where the source of this need for 'curing' comes from however.)

SEPARATELY from that, the Elves also 'awakened (regular) trees' that hadn't been 'indwelt' so they could teach them to speak, and learn their tree-talk.

Fangorn does make a clear distinction between his "kin" who have become sluggish, and "his trees" that are limb-lithe and can only be heard in whispers.

Do I have your distinction correct here?

Conclusions 1,2 and 4 hold up in any case, but text and conclusion 3 would need revision under any of the alternatives I now see possible.


Can you tell me from what text or how we arrive at the need for the Ents to be 'cured of dumbness' by the Elves?
The way I currently read it, the 'spirits from afar' would have cared for that, and I don't see the Elves involved in that part - only with the dealing with the (regular ole') trees.

Thanks.

This may be a rather far-fetched thought yet-- is there any truth to the belief that Elves cured Ents of dumbness, and the Ents awoke the trees? This has long been a thought of mine-- and with this thread's topic, I thought it worth mention.

 

[Ent]

This may be a rather far-fetched thought yet-- is there any truth to the belief that Elves cured Ents of dumbness, and the Ents awoke the trees? This has long been a thought of mine-- and with this thread's topic, I thought it worth mention.

Not too far fetched. Tree beard did say the Elves cured them of dumbness.
But he also says it was the Elves that awakened the trees.
Nowhere do we see any statement of the Ents doing anything more than being tree-shepherds.
(And taking a very long time to say anything or decide anything. We would not make good present day employees.)

 

[Elbereth Vala Varda]

Nowhere do we see any statement of the Ents doing anything more than being tree-shepherds.

Do shepherds not wake their flocks in the morning and put them to rest at eve? I think it would only be an aspect of the job, but I may be wrong.

 

[Elthir]

(. . .) Tree beard did say the Elves cured them of dumbness.

Yes, and (though I know you know) Treebeard added that this was a great gift that cannot be forgotten.

Also, there's an "unpublished" draft letter (but now published by Hammond and Scull) that reads, in part: "The Ents claimed to be the oldest "speaking people" after the Elves [illegible] until taught the art of speech by the Elves . . ."

Granted, we can't read the illegible part, but this all seems pretty solid to me, along with Appendix F (not that you said otherwise, but for the thread in general).

🐾

 

[Ent]

Yes, and (though I know you know) Treebeard added that this was a great gift that cannot be forgotten.

Also, there's an "unpublished" draft letter (but now published by Hammond and Scull) that reads, in part: "The Ents claimed to be the oldest "speaking people" after the Elves [illegible] until taught the art of speech by the Elves . . ."

Granted, we can't read the illegible part, but this all seems pretty solid to me, along with Appendix F (not that you said otherwise, but for the thread in general).

🐾

In your view here, is Treebeard speaking of "dumbness" in the sense of "muteness", or of "ignorance".

Do shepherds not wake their flocks in the morning and put them to rest at eve? I think it would only be an aspect of the job, but I may be wrong.

They might. The role of a "shepherd" in the sense that Tolkien's faith and the original word meant, was to "utterly care for the flock - its feeding, health and protection in every way".

But I don't think of that "waking" as the same "awakening" that is in view here generally.

It all has to do with the "awakening" necessary to 'show forth' Yavanna's singing that there would be protectors for the flora and fauna against the Dwarves primarily, but also the Elves and Men who would "still need wood" (in the case of the Trees of which she was especially fond) as Aule said at the end of their discussion. But the 'spirits from afar' indwelt other of the flora and fauna as well, for the same purposes. (Of which we hear little, unless.... (more on this later.))

The role of the Shepherds includes to ultimately protect them when needed against the ABUSES of all the rest of the Being.

This is partially why Treebeard was so enraged (and if you will, angry with himself), when the full abuses of Saruman finally came home to him. He, as the last "old Ent" (the other two being now useless for the work) had been lax (even failed) in his role of Shepherding.

 

[Elthir]

In your view here, is Treebeard speaking of "dumbness" in the sense of "muteness", or of "ignorance".

To me it's about speech -- going hand in hand (in my opinion) with Appendix F, that the Ents ascribed their desire for speech to the Eldar.

In reference to my "fuller" viewpoint above, I guess I really only wanted to add an external tidbit
with its possibly unanswerable question: what text came first with respect to external chronology?
The one that Christopher Tolkien used in the 1977 constructed Silmarillion -- or JRRT's penciled note
to draft letter 247, which reads:

"No one knew whence they (Ents) came or first appeared. The High Elves said that the Valar did not mention them in the "Music". But some (Galadriel) were of the opinion that when Yavanna discovered the Mercy of Eru to Aule in the matter of the Dwarves, she besought Eru (through Manwe) asking him to give life to things made of living things not stone, ad that the Ents were either souls sent to inhabit trees, or else that slowly took the likeness of trees owing to their inborn love of trees. (Not all were good [words illegible]). The Ents thus had mastery over stone. The males were devoted to Orome, but the wives to Yavanna."

Anyway, I'd also like to note that Christopher Tolkien edited the following from Tolkien's Of The Ents And The Eagles (Yavanna speaking): "I lifted up the branches of great trees ( . . . ) and some sang to Eru amid the wind and the rain and the glitter of the Sun"

 

[Elbereth Vala Varda]

To me it's about speech -- going hand in hand (in my opinion) with Appendix F, that the Ents ascribed their desire for speech to the Eldar.

In reference to my "fuller" viewpoint above, I guess I really only wanted to add an external tidbit
with its possibly unanswerable question: what text came first with respect to external chronology?
The one that Christopher Tolkien used in the 1977 constructed Silmarillion -- or JRRT's penciled note
to draft letter 247, which reads:

"No one knew whence they (Ents) came or first appeared. The High Elves said that the Valar did not mention them in the "Music". But some (Galadriel) were of the opinion that when Yavanna discovered the Mercy of Eru to Aule in the matter of the Dwarves, she besought Eru (through Manwe) asking him to give life to things made of living things not stone, ad that the Ents were either souls sent to inhabit trees, or else that slowly took the likeness of trees owing to their inborn love of trees. (Not all were good [words illegible]). The Ents thus had mastery over stone. The males were devoted to Orome, but the wives to Yavanna."

Anyway, I'd also like to note that Christopher Tolkien edited the following from Tolkien's Of The Ents And The Eagles (Yavanna speaking): "I lifted up the branches of great trees ( . . . ) and some sang to Eru amid the wind and the rain and the glitter of the Sun"

Thanks for sharing this. Very interesting.

 

[Ent]

To me it's about speech -- going hand in hand (in my opinion) with Appendix F, that the Ents ascribed their desire for speech to the Eldar.

In reference to my "fuller" viewpoint above, I guess I really only wanted to add an external tidbit
with its possibly unanswerable question: what text came first with respect to external chronology?
The one that Christopher Tolkien used in the 1977 constructed Silmarillion -- or JRRT's penciled note
to draft letter 247, which reads:

"No one knew whence they (Ents) came or first appeared. The High Elves said that the Valar did not mention them in the "Music". But some (Galadriel) were of the opinion that when Yavanna discovered the Mercy of Eru to Aule in the matter of the Dwarves, she besought Eru (through Manwe) asking him to give life to things made of living things not stone, ad that the Ents were either souls sent to inhabit trees, or else that slowly took the likeness of trees owing to their inborn love of trees. (Not all were good [words illegible]). The Ents thus had mastery over stone. The males were devoted to Orome, but the wives to Yavanna."

Anyway, I'd also like to note that Christopher Tolkien edited the following from Tolkien's Of The Ents And The Eagles (Yavanna speaking): "I lifted up the branches of great trees ( . . . ) and some sang to Eru amid the wind and the rain and the glitter of the Sun"

OK thank you - I'll print all this out, bring it alongside, ponder it deeply and determine needed adjustments.
(As to the last little piece, Yavanna's words, unaltered, remain in the Silmarillion.

... "I lifted up the branches of great trees to receive them, and some sang to Ilúvatar amid the wind and the rain.’"

it is this that, once she is aware of Ulmo's making of the Dwarves, drives her (in her lack of faith) to Manwe to ask about their protection as she had sung. and it is this that lets us know the Ents are a part of the original singing. (while Ulmo's Dwarves are not.)

Why is it a 'lack of faith' on her part? Because Illuvatar had said "all that you have done I will show forth." She had no reason to question his words.

Each of them, in their own ways and in their own times, show failures of faith, as created beings. This is one of her biggest.

Anyway, much great stuff you have provided, and I thank you..!

 

[Elthir]

I only added that Christopher Tolkien (not JRRT) edited out the "glitter of the sun" . . . as Christopher Tolkien explained that he did so 'cause it implied a pre-existing sun . . . but in my opinion, so does Treebeard's (author published) tale about the Entwives!

Though that said, I understand why he did it for the Silmarillion itself.

Just an interesting aside I guess, since I had forgotten this edit

 

[Elbereth Vala Varda]

I only added that Christopher Tolkien (not JRRT) edited out the "glitter of the sun" . . . Christopher Tolkien explained that he did so as it implied a pre-existing sun . . . but in my opinion, so does Treebeard's (author published) tale about the Entwives!

Just an interesting aside I guess, since I had forgotten this edit

Intriguing... I agree with you, it does imply that... I will have to go revisit that tale about Entwives!

 

[Ent]

I only added that Christopher Tolkien (not JRRT) edited out the "glitter of the sun" . . . as Christopher Tolkien explained that he did so 'cause it implied a pre-existing sun . . . but in my opinion, so does Treebeard's (author published) tale about the Entwives!

Though that said, I understand why he did it for the Silmarillion itself.

Just an interesting aside I guess, since I had forgotten this edit

OK thanks...

Hum Hroom... too much research too fast in too little time - on one of the other 3 places I posted it, other interesting discussion that (inevitably) brought the origin of Ungoliant into the mix so I'm adding thoughts about that as it's another item in progress.

Time to slow down, gather information, reassess it all, revise thinking, revise writing, and re-distribute.
Hard to do with as little discretionary time as this Ent has..!! (next time remind me not to post something in 4 places at once..!)

Most folks 'really like the essay, well put together, easy to follow the thought, very clear, well done" blah blah blah... but of course, it's slightly incorrect at points..! The primary purpose isn't changed, but the 'devil is in the details' and conclusion 3.

Then again.. this is exactly why I posted it... to get this sort of input.

 

[Elbereth Vala Varda]

Most folks 'really like the essay, well put together, easy to follow the thought, very clear, well done" blah blah blah... but of course, it's slightly incorrect at points..! The primary purpose isn't changed, but the 'devil is in the details' and conclusion 3.

Then again.. this is exactly why I posted it... to get this sort of input.

Don't be too hard on yourself-- or too hasty! It takes a bit of time to get things right. You'll figure it all out, without doubt, and we shall all get to share in the fruits of your labor. It is superbly well done.

 

[Bosko Took]

Just a thought, as general reader rather than expert, that JRRT loves to create temporal vistas, like the receding mysteries of a Victorian peep-show, by expressions such as walked under the stars, oldest of all, the first, and so on, and that over the whole corpus of his work, one may do better rather to feel this as a mood than attempt relating the various statements to an absolute timeline. Tom Bombadil is perhaps a case in point, so stubbornly resistant to analysis that even the dark power in Holly-wood and its servant, the renegade dwarf Jacksi, gave up on him. Beorn and the Pukel-men, even Farmer Maggot, are also touched, I think, by JRRT's constant re-visiting of this feeling, which is to do with deep time, the well of ages, forgetting and renewal; which leads one to Narsil, the sword that was broken, reforged. And so on. I write this without the text by me, so please forgive mis-quotes and other solecisms. Best wishes to all in the Great Fellowship, Peter