The Bridge of Khazad-dûm

Lilhobo,
I had forgotten that Gandalf seemed to know about Gollums role in the end, but he does say "the pity of Bilbo may rule the fate of many - yours not least". This certainly gives me the impression that Gandalf knows something about the things that are going to happen. But he doesn't seem to know everything - sorry Harad, I don't think Gandalf knew about the Balrog. He does say "A Balrog. Now I understand." and that does sound like he didn't expect it..... But how did Aragorn know? Uh huh, my head hurts

After the first time watching the movie I saw this thread, but I had no clear memory of the encounter with the Balrog. I saw it again last friday and clearly Gandalf is tackled by the whip, after the Balrog fell down with the broken bridge. Then the whip lets go and the Balrog dissapears out of sight. Gandalf tries to pull himself up, can't, and with some effort urges the fellowship to fly. After that he falls off the bridge.

From the book I still have the impression that the whip remains around Gandalfs knees when he hangs on to the bridge. Not a detail to have a debate about, IMHO.

I remember that same remark. I thought Galadriel or Celeborn said that, but in FOTR, chapter The Mirror of Galdriel, they only mention their suspicions of something dreadfull in the Mines of Moria. Not this excact quote.

here it is, Gandalf himself says that:
FOTR, chapter A Journey in the dark, just before they enter the room where they find Balin's tomb.
(typing errors on my account)
>>>>The Dwarves tell no tale; but even as mithril was the foundation of their wealth, so also it was their destruction: They delved too greedily and too deep, and disturbed that from wich they fled, Durin's Bane.<<<<

And shortly after that, the fellowship discovers that Durin's Bane in fact is a Balrog. Ouch.

LOL. You're right about that. To imagine Ian McKellen with that Balrog dangling under him like some sort of wind-up toy. Not something that would add to the effect of the moment.

I don't feel Gandalf choose to 'die' in Moria. He may have accepted his faith at that moment, but I don't think he deliberately went for it.

Harad,

I agree with you on that - Gandalf (and Aragorn) knew there was *something* evil in Moria, but not necessarily that it was a Balrog. That's quite clear on the book.

Hi Silme

I always thought of Gandalf saying Fly you Fools! as he was falling...


Sorta like

FLLLYYYY Yooooouuuu foooooools!

they did! He was making a snow angel!

LOL. I thought he went sky-diving, by the way he held his arms and legs.
I think the close-up as it was in the movie wasn't bad either, but the combination of the tekst with Ian McK allready falling would have worked. At least better than the snow-angel. *grinning*

Originally posted by Eonwe
Hi Silme

I always thought of Gandalf saying Fly you Fools! as he was falling...


Sorta like

FLLLYYYY Yooooouuuu foooooools!

Click to expand...

That's exactly what how I've imagined it, too!!

It's sad that it would probably be impossible to relate what Tolkien had wanted this scene to be in the context of Gandalf's part of the story. Heck, it elluded me in the book...I had it backward and thought that he was sacrificing himself and that his "Death" was a chance to shed his self conscious humility, but Tolkien meant it to be Gandalf GAINING humility and sacrificing himself upon his realization that HE was not crucial to the success of the Fellowship. All in all I thought that the acting and photography was spectacular in this scene though, as good as it could be and still keep the action moving.

The only thing that bugged me was the obviously hand animated Whip the Balrog had, but that was just fine...I realise that not everyone would notice and it was such a small thing in the grand scheme. My friend Mark the Playstation Addict (Who has never read the books) said that he didn't like the Balrog because it reminded him of something he would see in Final Fantasy...but then when asked what he thinks of the animation and cut scenes in the Final Fantasy games he said he thought they were great

...as he and I are living proof, there is no pleasing some folks 100%, ever...

Originally posted by Silme
Harad,

I agree with you on that - Gandalf (and Aragorn) knew there was *something* evil in Moria, but not necessarily that it was a Balrog. That's quite clear on the book.

Click to expand...

Though they knew something evil was in Moria, Gandalf's comment about "understanding" that it was a Balrog came from having his door-closing spell counteracted...What created being in all ME could have matched an Istari's power?? When the Balrog revealed himself, Gandalf realised that that power came from an evil Maia..

RW,

I don't fully understand your understanding of the book's version...Gandalf had no time to save himself (unless he could have cast a levitating spell, but I believe that he and the Balrog were fighting all the way down). The Balrog's whip took him into the abyss.

In the movie, the whip took him and then he hung there first before he dropped. The whether to save himself or not is really only a movie issue, not a book issue.

Thorin,

You may want to get out the nitro, but I agree with you...in one of my (many) deleted posts, I mentioned that I thought for cinematic reasons, Gandalf hung around after the Balrog fell, so PJ could focus on his face during "Fly you fools," without the indignity of a Balrog hanging around his knees. I dont believe it had ANYTHING to do with Gandalf choosing to fall.

BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOMMMMMMMM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

the fall (and late rise) of Gandalf

Hello, this is my first post here...

I'd like to explain why Gandalf doesn't feel the need to save himself from the free fall with tha Balrog.

First of all : tha Balrog is a very, VERY powerful creature in Tolkien Mithology. Balrogs are so powerful that they don't actually obey Sauron (maybe only if they feel fit to do so) and serve only Morgoth, their banished master. (for those who haven't read the Silmarillon, Morgoth is what we can call the Supreme Lord of Darkness, since the once named Melkor is a Valar, while Sauron is "only" a Maiar, thus his servant)

Gandalf cannot attempt to use his magic to battle the Balrog while the fellowship is still in Moria, since, as he tells ater when he rejoins Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas, the battle between him and the ancient evil continued in the depths of Moria for days, and eventually ripped the entire mounatin apart, thus making Moria collapse on itself.

This is also why Gandalf prefers to make the Balrog fall from the bridge: to give enough time for him and his fellowship to escape.

Welcome Rigel,

The movie and the book are somewhat different with regards to Gandalf's fall. In the book there is no delay between the Balrog's fall and Gandalf's. Gandalf is literally dragged by the Balrog's whip into the chasm. In the movie the Balrog and his whip are out of sight before Gandalf falls, hence the confusion in the movie.

The book give no indication that Gandalf dives in after the Balrog to finish him off. Rather that had he been able to escape cleanly, he would have.