The children of Hurin review

[Ricardo]

I find this story probably the most complete and well defined in the Silmarillion.

I didn't like it, too depressing and nothing good comes out of it. Everything else has a tragic moment but something good results from it.

The dead of Fingolfin proved that Morgoth wasn't beyond harm. The destruction of Gondolin and Doriath made it possible for Earendil to reach Aman and finally defeat Morgoth.

But the story of the Children of Hurin ended tragically, without any positive outcome, except maybe the consolation of the death of Glaurung.

Yet, Tolkien seemed to have put a lot of effort into this story and I find it odd. It contains many elements that are against Christian's beliefs to which Tolkien was very devoted.

There is incest, of course Turin and Nienor didn't know they were siblings but it did happen. Turin and Nienor commit suicide that to my understanding is a terrible sin, Nienor was even pregnant when she killed herself.

The story is wonderfully written (as all Tolkien's stories) but I have difficulty finding a fit with the Legendarium as a whole and with Tolkien's beliefs.

It shows a deep contrast between the fate of the 2 brothers, Hurin and Huor. Huor died quickly, never knew his son but Tuor would be essential in the events to come, Huor left a legacy.

But Hurin, who did nothing wrong, fought valiantly to protect Turgon's retreat was condemned to see his whole family destroyed.

And Hurin plays an important role in 2 occasions, one when he helped Turgon escape, and then when in desperation he seek for Gondolin, revealing Morgoth the approximate location of the city. This of course had tragic consequences, but without that, Tuor and Idil would have never taken Earendil to the heavens of Sirion.

But other than that, the whole tragedy of Turin and Nienor had no effects in the events, I find it puzzling.

 

[Server Room Gremlin]

The Children of Húrin was apparently more closely based on existing mythology, which Tolkien was interested in. I haven't read the story of Kullervo myself, though.

The Children of Húrin - Influences

 

[Idril Celebrindal]

I'd say that, in the end, good still came of the events in The Children of Hurin. It's been a while since I last read the book, but I can definitely remember that in the war at the end of the world, the Dagor Dagorath, where Morgoth and his servants will be banished forever, it will be Turin who deals Morgoth his fatal blow.
"In that day Tulkas shall strive with Morgoth, and on his right hand shall be Eönwë, and on his left Túrin Turambar, son of Húrin, returning from the Doom of Men at the ending of the world; and the black sword of Túrin shall deal unto Morgoth his death and final end; and so shall the children of Húrin and all Men be avenged."
It even mentions that Turin will use his black sword, the same sword that slew Beleg and himself (and the same sword that he was buried with). If Turin hadn't gone through all that suffering that was laid upon him by Morgoth, then he wouldn't be fighting at Tulkas' side. Maybe the events in The Children of Hurin had to happen, from the death of Lalaith to the slaying of Beleg to Nienor's suicide, so that Morgoth could be destroyed in the end. Maybe by cursing Hurin and his kin Morgoth wrought his own doom, because he so caused it that Turin, the one whom he had tried to destroy, would be the one who destroyed him. If you follow this line of thought you could say that Morgoth destroys himself. I don't know if that's how Tolkien intended it, but I think he did. Evil destroying itself is certainly a theme in the rest of TS and LotR.
Anyway, those are just my thoughts. I have more, but I'm not sure how to put them into words just yet.

 

[Ricardo]

Yes, but the Dagor Dagorath story was dismissed by Tolkien himself. There are still references in the Silmarillion and LOTR of the end of the world, but the story as it's told in History of Middle Earth was abandoned. I think it had too many inconsistencies and contradictions with the whole mythology and Tolkien had abandoned the idea of basing the Legendarium in Norse Mythology. Probably he thought it wasn't worth the effort of re-writing it because it wasn't essential to the Silmarillion, if he had more time he would have probably worked in the Fall of Gondolin and the war of the wrath rather than something so far in the future.

 

[Elthir]

Idril, one could take the stance that the mere existence of the Prophecy of Andreth -- from a late writing wherein Túrin is said to return at the End of the First Age to kill Ancalagon -- means that the Dagor Dagorath and The Healing of Arda scenario found in The History of Middle-Earth was ultimately abandoned.

However, if one doesn't take that path

What know that in the later 1950s Tolkien re-characterized the Dagor Dagorath/ breaking of the Silmarils (and so on) scenario as a Númenórean Myth, and as a Mannish story, in my opinion, it would not necessarily have to be in line with everything in the Legendarium. For example, as a Númenórean tale, it could, in my opinion, even involve flat-world notions.

Of course one might wonder: did JRRT intend that both a Mannish Prophecy and a Mannish Myth would arise "in-world" -- with both ideas (at least in some measure) concerning "Túrin Returned"?
And if he did, for myself, I'd guess the prophecy should be the "one" to prove true, in-world.

Possible but unlikely? Who knows?

We also know that JRRT had written about the Healing of Arda within the Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth, and maybe that scenario was going to be enough, along with hints written or published (by Tolkien himself) elsewhere.

Or, maybe, something else!

Anyway, that's my "yes no maybe" take on this matter for today!

 

[Ricardo]

Idril, one could take the stance that the mere existence of the Prophecy of Andreth -- from a late writing wherein Túrin is said to return at the End of the First Age to kill Ancalagon -- means that the Dagor Dagorath and The Healing of Arda scenario found in The History of Middle-Earth was ultimately abandoned.

However, if one doesn't take that path

What know that in the later 1950s Tolkien re-characterized the Dagor Dagorath/ breaking of the Silmarils (and so on) scenario as a Númenórean Myth, and as a Mannish story, in my opinion, it would not necessarily have to be in line with everything in the Legendarium. For example, as a Númenórean tale, it could, in my opinion, even involve flat-world notions.

Of course one might wonder: did JRRT intend that both a Mannish Prophecy and a Mannish Myth would arise "in-world" -- with both ideas (at least in some measure) concerning "Túrin Returned"?
And if he did, for myself, I'd guess the prophecy should be the "one" to prove true, in-world.

Possible but unlikely? Who knows?

We also know that JRRT had written about the Healing of Arda within the Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth, and maybe that scenario was going to be enough, along with hints written or published (by Tolkien himself) elsewhere.

Or, maybe, something else!

Anyway, that's my "yes no maybe" take on this matter for today!

I think that originally, the DD was supposed to happen, I mean, it would be part of the story.

If it became a mannish myth, then we can infer that a lot of it was just guessed and there you are right because it doesn't have to fit the rest of the Legendarium. It would be an event far far in the future, where the only fact was that it would happen, as with all myths, there would be stories added to it without any base, just guess or wishful thinking.

Going back to what Tolkien did tell us about the DD, it clearly doesn't fit. For once, it's not the end of Arda to give way to a new evolved version. In this case, it was just a complete reset minus Morgoth. The sun and the moon gone, the trees back, all elves re-embodied, the Pelori mountains gone and here, Arda would have to be flat again in order to the light to flow everywhere.

There would be not true evil, surely some Morgoth's servants would have survived but Morgoth himself and Sauron would be completely gone with no chance of return, so any evil would be minor at worst.

And I really struggle with the concept of Turin slaying Morgoth.

First, why Turin? certainly he suffered in the hands of Morgoth but he wasn't the only one. He also committed terrible acts (I know, I know, it was the curse but still), not the least killing himself. Turin obviously didn't want to stay alive, knowing what he had done and since the love of his life had killed herself and happened to be his sister.

In the story, Morgoth seems to be back to his full power, not even Tulkas could deal with him and Turin was able to kill him? Especially considering that a Vala cannot be killed, except by Iluvatar. Was Turin Iluvatar's sword? but then again, why him?

And what happens after? Will Turin remain in Valinor as an elf but without Nienor, Lalaith and his parents? would he want that? or would he just vanish again?


I also question how Melkor would get Sauron, the Balrogs, the dragons back from behind the doors of night? that seems too much, even for Melkor at full power.

 

[Elthir]

Just to add the text wherein the former "Second Prophecy" becomes a Mannish myth: see Morgoth's Ring, Author's note 7 to the commentary to the Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth, where JRRT says that the "myth" that appears at the end of the Silmarillion "is of Númenórean origin; it is clearly made by Men, though Men acquainted with Elvish tradition."

And for example, in his book Arda Reconstructed, Doug Kane writes: "The portion of the Second Prophecy in which Túrin strikes down Morgoth is valuable, because it provides some resolution to the unrelenting darkness of the story of the Children of Húrin. But it is not necessarily meant to be taken as truth, as what really happens (or rather, what really will happen). It is not "Elvish history"; it is "Mannish mythology" as stated in the Athrabeth commentary. But I see no reason why the two cannot exist side by side with each other. (. . .)" Arda Reconstructed, Of the Voyage of Earendil

Agree with Doug or not; I agree with this much: if this text is to be considered as part of the Legendarium, then it's to be considered as Mannish Mythology.

 

[Idril Celebrindal]

O-o-o-h, I didn't realize that the Dagor Dagorath wasn't confirmed by Tolkien. It's just like me to go and make an argument on something that I know very little about 😂.

Yet, Tolkien seemed to have put a lot of effort into this story and I find it odd. It contains many elements that are against Christian's beliefs to which Tolkien was very devoted.

There is incest, of course Turin and Nienor didn't know they were siblings but it did happen. Turin and Nienor commit suicide that to my understanding is a terrible sin, Nienor was even pregnant when she killed herself.

The story is wonderfully written (as all Tolkien's stories) but I have difficulty finding a fit with the Legendarium as a whole and with Tolkien's beliefs.

About the Turin-Nienor thing, I'm not saying it was right, but maybe Tolkien wanted to show that main characters are often not perfect. It kind of reminds me of king David and Bathseba. He was the Lord's anointed, and yet look at what he did with Uriah. Maybe Tolkien wanted to echo that? I don't know, just an idea.