The doom of the Witch-king

[Niniel]

I think the person speaking the prophecy (Malbeth the Seer right?) had seen that this would happen in the future (why else would he be a seer?). He had seen that it would happen this way and not another, so there was no other possibility for the witch-king to die. Of course it would have been possible for anyone else to kill the witch-king, but since history was going to take this course, it was to go like this and not in any other way. I don't mean to say that because Malbeth said this, it was predetermined; he had just seen what would be the course of history.

 

[Ithrynluin]

Originally posted by Lantarion
I could have sword there was a thread just like this, discussing whether the term 'man' in the Prophecy was literal or not.. And now I can't find it!

Here it is, Lanty. It's been moved back to the Guild of Scholars because that's where it originated from and I just wanted it to get more response. Now I've moved it back and merged it with the more recent one. Phew!

 

[Inderjit S]

I think the person speaking the prophecy (Malbeth the Seer right?) had seen that this would happen in the future (why else would he be a seer?).

It was Glorfindel.

Malbeth predicted that Arvedui would be Arthedain's last 'King' and about Gondor's 'dillema' in accepting either him or Earnil II as King and about Aragorn having to choose the Paths of Dead.

 

[Lantarion]

Originally posted by ithrynluin
Here it is, Lanty. It's been moved back to the Guild of Scholars because that's where it originated from and I just wanted it to get more response. Now I've moved it back and merged it with the more recent one. Phew!

Ah! Excellent, ithryn. Should have dug deeper, I s'pose..

 

[Legolam]

Hey, why the merged thread? I don't dispute the fact that the prophecy said man, whatever it meant. I was more getting at the point that perhaps belief in your own power over someone else overcomes fate/the prophecy and that so called "prophecies" are self-fulfilling.

It's a bit of a deep subject, but I'm bored and I wanted to know if anyone else had any rambling opinions on this

 

[Ingwë]

It was Merry who pierced the Witch-King:
Merry’s sword has stabbed him [The Witch-King] from behind, shearing through the black mantle, and passing up beneath the haubeck had pierced the sinew behind his mighty knee
‘Eowyn! Eowyn!’ cried Merry. Then tottering, struggling up, with her last strength she drove her sword between the crown and mantle, as the great shoulders bowed before her.
Merry used the dagger he took from the Barrow-Downs and Tom told him that the Men of the Westernesse forged it long ago. They were foes of the Dark Lord, he said. Maybe the blades had some specific power, a spell was cast upon them or at least they were forged for the War against Sauron and they were significant. I think by piercing the Witch King with that blade Merry broke the connection between the One Ring/Nazgul’s own Ring (I don’t know what really lingers the life of the Ringwraiths and makes them so powerful) and the Witch-King himself so he became vulnerable spirit. Eowyn had a sword in her hands and pierced that spirit and this is how it ends Eowyn just finished the work.
I agree that Glorfindel had prophetic abilities. I think that Glorfindel predicted that the With-King won’t be killed by the hand of any living men. But that doesn’t mean that he cannot be killed by a Men, it just will not happen. Glorfindel foresaw the future, but the Witch King wasn’t cursed by him.
I also agree that the Wisest among the Eldar had prophetic abilities. Example: Elrond told Aragorn: A great doom awaits you, either to rise above the height of all you fathers since the days of Elendil, or to fall in to darkness with all that is left of your kin. He also called Aragorn Estel (Hope). Cirdan also had such abilities: that’s’ why he gave Gandalf the Ring of Fire.
I've thought of it as a simple little pun by Tolkien.
And I have always thought of it as a simple little pun by the English language…

 

[Rilien]

I agree that Glorfindel had prophetic abilities. I think that Glorfindel predicted that the With-King won’t be killed by the hand of any living men. But that doesn’t mean that he cannot be killed by a Men, it just will not happen. Glorfindel foresaw the future, but the Witch King wasn’t cursed by him.
I also agree that the Wisest among the Eldar had prophetic abilities. Example: Elrond told Aragorn: A great doom awaits you, either to rise abovethe height of all you fathers since the days of Elendil, or to fall in to darkness with all that is left of your kin. He also called Aragorn Estel (Hope). Cirdan also had such abilities: that’s’ why he gave Gandalf the Ring of Fire.
I've thought of it as a simple little pun by Tolkien.
And I have always thought of it as a simple little pun by the English language…

Gandalf believed that there was a prophecy (whether true or not). That's good enough for me.

 

[Arvedui]

If Glorfindel could foresee that the Witch-king would be killed by someone who wasn't neither man nor Man, then wouldn't that necesarilly mean that the Witch-king couldn't be killed by a Man?
It just wouldn't happen that a man killed him, right?

 

[Starbrow]

I think that's right, Arvedui.

So when WK says, "No living man may hinder me!" do you think he's referring to what Glorfindel foresaw, or that he believes that because he is a Nazgul, he is invincible as long as Sauron is alive?

I used to think it was a reference to the prophecy, but now that I've thought about it more, I think it could be the WK's arrogance.

 

[elrilgalia]

it cant just have been his personal arrogance if more than one person beleived it, and not, presumably as a result of the WK uttering it in the first place.

 

[Varokhâr]

If Glorfindel could foresee that the Witch-king would be killed by someone who wasn't neither man nor Man, then wouldn't that necesarilly mean that the Witch-king couldn't be killed by a Man?
It just wouldn't happen that a man killed him, right?

That's what I tend to think; Glorfindel forsaw that it would just so happen that a non-male would strike the death-blow. It leaves a lot of loopholes open for technicalities to enter in, such as a male hobbit and a female human both bringing about the W-K's demise.

In essense, Glorfindel saw that it just would happen that a male Human wouldn't be involved. A male Human could've just as easily struck the death-blow as Eowyn did, or stabbed the W-K in the leg like Merry did - things just weren't fated to play out like that. Glorfindel saw a glimpse of the most likely fate of things if events continued along their current course, much like any seer in any story.

 

[Arvedui]

So when WK says, "No living man may hinder me!" do you think he's referring to what Glorfindel foresaw, or that he believes that because he is a Nazgul, he is invincible as long as Sauron is alive?

Personally, I think that the Witch-king had heard the prophecy, and that combined with his arrogance, he referred to it.