the 🧝Elves of Mirkwood

Arthur_Vandelay said:

...
Well, in the "Prologue" chapter of Fellowship of the Ring...

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Wow! A sterling response, brilliant! Luvvit! Thanks! My kinda guy!!!

Lotho

Here's a little question of my own regarding the languages spoken by the Hobbits . . .

In those first 450 years of Hobbit presence in Eriador, when the Fallohides and Harfoots dwelt in the South Downs and the Stoors in the Angle, do you think many of the Hobbits would have retained the Mannish speech of the Vale of Anduin? Or would they have picked up a local tongue--and if so, which language (or languages) might this have been? (i.e. did Hillmen dwell in the Angle?)

According to a an Essay (written well after the publication of LotR, Lotho ) Of Dwarves and Men (HoME 12), they picked up Westron after entering Eriador... which makes perfect sense considering they had to have learned Westron some time.

Here's a passage:

Bilbo's statement that the cohabitation of Big Folk and Little Folk in one settlement at Bree was peculiar and nowhere else to be found was probably true in his time (the end of the Third Age); but it would seem that actually Hobbits had liked to live with or near to Big Folk of friendly kind, who with their greater strength protected them from many dangers and enemies and other hostile Men, and received in exchange many services. For it is remarkable that the western Hobbits preserved no trace or memory of any language of their own. The language they spoke when they entered Eriador was evidently adopted from the Men of the Vales of Anduin (related to the Atani, / in particular to those of the House of Beor [> of the Houses of Hador and of Beor]); and after their adoption of the Common Speech they retained many words of that origin. This indicates a close association with Big Folk; though the rapid adoption of the Common Speech in Eriador shows Hobbits to have been specially adaptable in this respect. As does also the divergence of the Stoors, who had associated with Men of different sort before they came to the Shire.

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There is a footnote associated with the second to last sentence:

When they entered Eriador (early in the second century of the Third Age) Men were still numerous there, both Numenoreans and other Men related to the Atani, beside remnants of Men of evil kinds, hostile to the Kings. But the Common Speech (of Numenorean origin) was in general use there, even after the decay of the North Kingdom. In Bilbo's time great areas of Eriador were empty of Men. The desolation had begun in the Great Plague (soon after the Hobbits' occupation of the Shire), and was hastened by the final fall and disappearance of the North Kingdom. In the Plague it would seem that the only Hobbit communities to survive were those in the far North-west at Bree and in the Shire.

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Christopher Tolkien then notes that: "The opening sentence of this note, placing the entry of the Hobbits into Eriador 'early in the second century of the Third Age', is plainly a casual error: presumably my father intended 'millennium' for 'century' (in Appendix B the date of the coming of the Harfoots is given under Third Age 1050, and that of the Fallohides and the Stoors under 1150)."


This essay had the purpose of showing the relations between the tongue sin The Silmarillon and those of the time of LotR. First through Third Age.

I think the wording strongly suggests that they went from the Mannish languages picked up near Anduin straight to speaking Westron.

PS: I apologise Lotho. I did snap at you pretty badly. I was still upset about the time you discredited an essay as being an old draft that did not made the cut when you didn't even know it was written well after LotR was published. Anyhow, thanks about the avatar... it's good to know as I make them myself.

Nóm said:

According to a an Essay (written well after the publication of LotR, Lotho ) Of Dwarves and Men (HoME 12)...

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And just when I had decided that HoME was a collection of drafts, I find that at least book 12 contains the kind of information I especially appreciate! I'll have to start making trips to the library to see which of the volumes I might wish to acquire for the "Tolkien Corner" of my bookshelf.

I would have quite liked to have lived in Bree! I would have liked even more to have lived in the Shire, but I'm sure my large self galumphing over countryside and townships configured for smaller folk would not have gone well at all — Aragorn showed great wisdom in putting it off limits to men.

Nóm said:

PS: I apologise Lotho. I did snap at you pretty badly...

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Apology accepted. And I apologize for being so arrogant as to have made a discreditation based on ignorance. *sigh*

Lotho

Dwarves and Elves

Well, elves and dwarves hate each other, and Tolkien wanted to make that clear. I thought that the elves were really mean at first, but then I read LOTR. Now I myself have joined the elf-hood. I'm crazy about elves!

Back to the point. The elves are cool, but just nasty to dwarves, except for Legolas and Galadriel to Gimli. Remember, Haldir had Gimli blindfolded when they were in Lothlorien? Then Aragorn had them all blindfolded?

But then Legolas and Gimli were good friends later, and Galadriel obviously liked him, because she gave him her hair, even more than he asked for!

'Area

Area, I think describing elves and dwarves as hating each other may be a bit strong. Sure there had been some nasty bumps in the road between the two races, most prominent is the tragic fight over the Nauglamir, but there has also been lots of collaboration and friendship along the way as well. Consider the assistance dwarves provided in the construction of Nargothrond as well as Menegroth. Then, of course, there was the very friendly relationship between the elves of Eregion and the dwarves of Moria.

I wouldn't say they were best of pals but there was no small amount of positve dealings between the two races.

If I may, I'd like to get back to the basic question Starflower raised. JRRT portrayed the elves of Mirkwood in a pretty lousy light. Notwithstanding some understandable suspicions of strange wanderers in Mirkwood, Thranduil's people could definitely have shown some better hospitality. And given the wonderful eyesight of the elves, they certainly should have seen that Bilbo and company posed no threat. At least they should have given them the chance to explain themselves the first time they crashed their party.

But I think the worst behavior of the Mirkwood elves followed the death of Smaug. Thranduil mobilized his army and marched on Erebor for no other reason than to plunder the dwarves' treasure. At least the men of Laketown had a legitimate concern with being compensated for the destruction of their town by the dragon. Thranduil wanted nothing more than to line his pockets and he thought he could get mighty rich simply by knocking off 13 dwarves. It was kind of a good thing that the goblin and wargs showed up so everyond could then unite against the common enemy. Thranduil's behavior strikes me as exceedingly unethical and underhanded. Very Bill Ferny-ish.

In this post I stated that the Stoors who returned to Wilderland spoke a language of the Northmen who dwelt in the area.

Actually, a footnote to the section "Of Hobbits" in Appendix F suggests that these Stoors, having come from the Angle, spoke Westron (the Common Tongue); though they took their names in the local Mannish tongue.

These elves are Forest elves (is that the right word?) and if I remember not all the elves of Mirkwood are High elves. These elves had never seen the light of the Trees. They afraid of Smaug, The Necromancer of Dol Guldur. Maybe Thranduil is cruel person; he wants the gold of Smaug but his son Legolas is not like him.
I think Tolkien changed the elves so much because they are elves. They are the people of the nature. The began to write The Silmarilion first, didn`t he? The Elves are fair and they are great. The Lord of the Rings repeat that things.

Remember also, when Aule originally created the Dwarves Eru tells him "and often strife shall arise between thine and mine, the children of my adoption and the children of my choice".

Nor do the Wood-elves seem out of place to me. Remember the Green-elves of Ossiriand were very willing to afflict whatever injuries they could on the men who first came into Beleriand. My personal theory (comes from a phrase from "Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age" in Sil) is that the Elves of Mirkwood were remnants of the Teleri, especially the Green-elves. If that were the case, then they would remember the fighting both at Menegroth and at the jewel's recovery. Quite enough reason to distrust Dwarves.

Annaheru said:

My personal theory (comes from a phrase from "Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age" in Sil) is that the Elves of Mirkwood were remnants of the Teleri, especially the Green-elves. If that were the case, then they would remember the fighting both at Menegroth and at the jewel's recovery. Quite enough reason to distrust Dwarves.

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Very interesting. I agree. These elves escaped from Belerian after the War of Wrath. They dwelled in the forest of Middleearth. But are the kings of these elves Noldors? If they are Nolrdors why they hate this dwarves?

Ingwë said:

Very interesting. I agree. These elves escaped from Belerian after the War of Wrath. They dwelled in the forest of Middleearth. But are the kings of these elves Noldors? If they are Nolrdors why they hate this dwarves?

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They weren't Noldor: they were Sindarin princes (Oropher and his son Thranduil), who arrived in Mirkwood from Lindon at the beginning of the Second Age. I'm not certain, however, whether they originally hailed from Doriath or from the Falas (or indeed if they were born in the First Age at all).

I think that Thranduil (and thus also Oropher) had lived in Doriath, because Thranduil emulated Menegroth when he built his halls - something he probably would (or could) not have done if he had never lived there.

UT, 'The History of Galadriel and Celeborn', Appendix B - 'The Sindarin Princes of the Silvan Elves':

... at last Thranduil established his realm in the north-east of the forest and delved there a fortress and great halls underground. Oropher was of Sindarin origin, and no doubt Thranduil his son was following the example of King Thingol long before, in Doriath; though his halls were not to be compared with Menegroth.

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The elves of the vales of anduin were nandor(as were the green elves in the frist age) they had been there for thosands of years (roughly 2.5 ages when the war of wrath happend. Then Oropher and Amdir show up. They are made princes or kings and Oropher takes the East of the river living on Amon lanc and Amdir lives in lorien. Oropher tells his folk of the sacking of menegroth.
...two ages later... Oropher is dead, his son rules the elves and they slowly move northwards to find a place of safety till they have settleled down and boom a troop of dwarves appear!! Has the necromer sent them!! Do they want jewls!! Run!! It happends again and again till they relise theres only 13... You do the rest..bear in mind that they would say nothing about there quest.

Starflower said:

I was just reading the bit where the dwarves are captured by the wood-elves. It seems to me that the Elves were unnecessarily cruel towards the dwarves, lighting the fires, and extinguishing them as soon as the dwarves appeared, then capturing them in the dark and jailing them at once. The Elven-king especially seems a cold and cruel person, not at all like the Elves in LOTR. Any ideas as to why Tolkien chose to change the Elves so much when he wrote LOTR ? It can't just be because Hobbit was meant for a younger audience, in many places it is very scary...

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Very good point!

I think that he might have changed the Elves because he wanted to contrast them in the eyes of Frodo and Sam and since Frodo and Sam saw the Elves as perfection it's possible he changed the elves for the purpose of also making the fight between good and bad clear. If the Elves were noted or known for their cruel actions it would make the lines between good and evil not so clear, and im sure Tolkien didn't want a question of who was good and was evil. If there had been blurred lines of good and bad it would have made it not a strong story of hope and I think after seeing the WW that Tolkiens intent was to inspire hope in the hearts of the readers. You cant have a strong feeling of hope if youre sitting there questions whether or not the Elves were even good. It would have defeated the purpose.

I do think however that the Hobbit was written more geared toward a younger reader vs. LOTR's which seems to be more for adult readers. And although he had already been writing the Simirillion it was during a time of war and dont forget shortly after WWII took place, so it's my understanding that children had thicker skin back then and reading what the Mirkwood Elves did to the dwarfs was nothing compared to what was happening in the world at that time.

Also having had that happened then the contrast of the Elven race in LOTR's might be to also show that people and races can in fact change. It also is a way to explain Gimli's and Legolass strained relationship in the beginning of the fellowship. I think that may have been a apart of giving the reader a pre notion to that specific relationship.