The Final ⚔️battle.......

[redline2200]

I have read the trilogy and the Sil but I am still a little unclear on what exactly the "final battle" is. I know that when elves die they go to the halls of mandos until the time of the final battle , but what exactly is the final battle? who fights in it? Im sure the Valar are involved and if they are it doesn't seem like it will be much of a battle. There isnt any bad guys powerful enough to take on all the Valar. Also, do you think Eru will play a part in the final battle?

 

[Lantarion]

In the Final Battle, Dagor Dagorath, all of the Children of Ilúvatar and all of the Ainur will supposedly fight against every evil of Morgoth; and it si told that Túrin Turambar will deliver the death-blow to Melkor.
That's all I 'know'; it's all in one of the HoME books.

 

[Celebthôl]

K now im very intregued, i have read the sil but dont remember anything on the last battle (only the name is familiar) anyway, can i have some information on it please, any will help thanx!

Thôl

 

[Niniel]

Someone posted a quote from HOME a few weeks ago about the Final battle, can someone find the link or post it again? It was very intriguing!

 

[gate7ole]

One of the passages (the most detailed) says:

From HOME V:
Thus spake Mandos in prophecy, when the Gods sat in judgement in Valinor, and the rumour of his words was whispered among all the Elves of the West. When the world is old and the Powers grow weary, then Morgoth, seeing that the guard sleepeth, shall come back through the Door of Night out of the Timeless Void; and he shall destroy the Sun and Moon. But Earendel shall descend upon him as a white and searing flame and drive him from the airs. Then shall the Last Battle be gathered on the fields of Valinor. In that day Tulkas shall strive with Morgoth, and on his right hand shall be Fionwe, and on his left Turin Turambar, son of Hurin, coming from the halls of Mandos; and the black sword of Turin shall deal unto Morgoth his death and final end; and so shall the children of Hurin and all Men be avenged.

Thereafter shall Earth be broken and re-made, and the Silmarils shall be recovered out of Air and Earth and Sea; for Earendel shall descend and surrender that flame which he hath had in keeping. Then Feanor shall take the Three Jewels and bear them to Yavanna Palurien; and she will break them and with their fire rekindle the Two Trees, and a great light shall come forth. And the Mountains of Valinor shall be levelled, so that the Light shall go out over all the world. In that light the Gods will grow young again, and the Elves awake and all their dead arise, and the purpose of Iluvatar be fulfilled concerning them. But of Men in that day the prophecy of Mandos doth not speak, and no Man it names, save Turin only, and to him a place is given among the sons of the Valar.

 

[Celebthôl]

oh god im really enthralled by that now, i want to know more on the subject, and how was Túrin named as among the Valar, and does Mandos know the fate of men?

 

[Niniel]

It doesn't say Turin was named among the Valar, but 'among the sons of the Valar' (which is some difference). I wish Tolkien had written more about this!

 

[Gloer]

Tolkien 's apocalypse

I think that part of the Turin is not going to happen.

Morgoth will win and all the Arda will perish in darkness.

Tolkien after all was familiar with the germanic mythology of Ragnaroyk. The end is grim and final. Everything falls and perishes Thor, Odin and Loke all fall with their warriors that have waited in Valhalla and the giants win.

This is important in understanding the reasons why german pagans fought. They didn't fight because of they were promised victory at the end. They fought because it was the right thing to do.

I think Tolkien purposefully left the apocalypse of Arda unpublished because Catholic apocalypse of eternal victory of God and redemption does not play well at all with the germanic myths.

He never reached a nice synthesis such as TLOTR portrayal of evil and Silmarillions Long Defeat which manage to have both sides: real evil and evil within, the good side winning but with irrecoverable losses (making it an eventual defeat). In all Tolkiens work there is a presence of loss and decay. Good things stand only if they are held up by good people. There is no inevitable victory for the good side and good things.

 

[Niniel]

But even in Ragnarok there is some vague reference (much discussed by great scholars) that there is still some good left after the victory of the giants; so evil does not totally win and the gods seem to be not wholly conquered. It's in the poetic Edda, one of the last verses in it.
But, why would Tolkien write such an outline that clearly points to a victory of the Valar, and after all, not finish it because he believed that in the end evil would win? I think he just didn't have time to finish it.

 

[Lantarion]

I don't think Tolkien had either the Eddas or the Bible in mind when he thuoght up Dagor Dagorath and its end; he wrote what he wanted and felt was going to happen, and we shouldn't question his 'reasoning' just because it conflicts with ancient myths.

Originally posted by Gloer
I think that part of the Turin is not going to happen.

Gloer, what makes you say that? I don't think this is a matter of belief, as Tolkien actually wrote down what would have happened in the Final Battle.

 

[gate7ole]

Re: Tolkien 's apocalypse

Originally posted by Gloer
I think that part of the Turin is not going to happen.

Morgoth will win and all the Arda will perish in darkness.

So, you question the professor? That he didn't know the correct end of the story? Why are you so destructive? Do you know anything more?
Seriously now, Tolkien would never end the story of ME with a complete destruction and win of the evil. He was not a pessimist. From inside his mythology, Eru wouldn't allow such an outcome. And finally Mandos' prophecies were always true. Why should this one differ?

 

[Gloer]

he didn't finish it

He made some drafts. maybe we can conclude that overall D-day would end happily but Tolkien seems to be dissatisfied with everything. It lacks a climatic end!

Bringing Turin to avenge and destroy Morgoth is a bit artificial don't you think?

tulkas wrestling Morgoth was not enough. Everyone knew how that had ended before when Melkor was at height of his strength.

I am convinced that Tolkiens drafts for the end of Arda are just drafts.

Good winning in the end is christian thing to have. A great battle to end evil reign over the world. But that would neccessitate a true conquest of Arda by Morgoth before he can be beaten! Otherwise it is not a fight at all. Morgoth tries to get in and he loses, everybody is happy and no one in Hobbitton even noticed really?! No Morgoth either needs to win first and then be overthrown (like in Silmarillion) or he must lose but manage to destroy everything first.

Anyhow I think a mythical ending is not neccessary since years after the LOTR there is nothing fantastic in Middle Earth. It is basically realistic world withno clear god and no evil, just shades of grey modern people. You can't have Morgoth there in person!?
People would laugh him out!

 

[Celebthôl]

No they wouldnt, it would have to be like at least a millenium or 2 before he would get laughed out, because although there is no mysticalness in ME there is still a linger of it and tales of it that will last for a long time and then Orcs and Trolls have to be desroyed also so there is nuthing different left, and history passes out of knowlege and then stupid technology comes in and ruins all our brains and i hate it all loads!!!!!!!!
(sorry i really hate technology (should be banned))!!!

Here endeth thy rant!

Thôl

 

[BlackCaptain]

Ive never really understood this "Final Battle" until now, and all of your arguments are kind of foolish... THIS IS A BOOK. IT NEVER HAPPENED. Some of you are forgeting that, and arguing like this could be found in a history book they teach you at school. We have no way of knowing what finally happens in the bitter end of all, and its wrong to try and finish Tolkiens work for him. The only person who is qualified to do such is Christopher Tolkien.

And someone mentioned like, Melkor coming out of the Void? First, what void? And second:
When the Ring is destroyed in Mt. Doom, that is pretty much the end, i think. Think about it... Morgoth does a bunch of bad stuff, he gets killed, or destroyed or watever, his "heir" Sauron takes over in middle earth, and makes the rings. Into the rings, or i should say Ring, he puts all of the evil and bad things he can muster. So when the Ring finally gets destroyed, along with Sauron, who else does the "bad guys" have? Orcs? A master Troll? A wizard? (keep in mind Sauraman dies...)

Unless Morgoth CAN come out of some "void", the good guys have won. And if he does end up coming out of a Void, that is only our guess, and not proven. Now that quote that... gate7ole posted was very good, and well searched for. good job. Tolkien wrote that i presume, and since Tolkien wrote it, how can Gloer say that that doesnt happen? Tolkien says, that he is finaly destroyed, er whatever, and all is good again.

And if that quote doesnt come true, we have no spot in saying what really does happen.

That probly doesnt make much sense...

 

[Celebthôl]

firstly: we never even mesioned history books and finishing the stories, i just havent read HOME or UT so imaskin after those!

secondly: go read the Silmarillion!

thirdly: sauron was a servant of morgoth not the other way round so its far from over!

fourthly: that quote came from The Sil, HOME and/or UT which are mostly just notes! (or put together by notes)(theyare unfinished works by Mr Tolkien)!

fifthly: the void is the bladdy place where Morgoth got put when he was defeted, it is also the place where Earendil sails his boat with the last Silmaril!

finally: where the hell do you get off by repetidly saying "THIS IS A BOOK. IT NEVER HAPPENED"?! dont u think we know that?! people are interested in its histories and it can be found in a history book (if u look in the right one) we are debating it, but please show me where we said it was real!!!

 

[BlackCaptain]

sorry, you make good points...

Firstly: ok. But this gloer guy is kinda taking it to an extreme

Secondly: I am

Thirdly: i knew Sauron was a servant of Morgoth. Sauron kinda takes over when Morgoth gets destroyed er watever... so when he gets destroyed, who's left to take over?

fourthly: exactly. Their UNFINISHED. And some of you, not all, are trying to finish them, and making a big deal about it

Fifthly: thnx. i didnt know that. but what does bladdy mean?

and finally: Uve gotta point. It just seems like to many of us (me included sometimes) let our imaginations take over. It's fun to talk about it, yes... but we need to stay in reality and remember "its just a story". It is a great set of books, and it seems so real that we want to believe it happend. But it didnt, and we need to remind ourselves of that before we get too... argumental...

Im just tryin to give everyone a little reality check, cuz a couple people (whom i wont name) are getting just a little carried away. And i stress little.

 

[Húrin Thalion]

Reality? What do you mean? I don't get your point at all? What kind of sick world is that?

Anyway, besides my silly and predictable jokes I had to make i must say one thing. Morgulking it seems like you are not quitely the right person to tell someone not to get too carried away it is only an internet forum, people may have different opinions or wish to do different things here don't get too upset.

Húrin Thalion

 

[BlackCaptain]

another good point, but again, im just trying to calm everyone down, and make sure they dont get carried away.

My house is big on that... Dont get carried away with things...

I probly shouldn't have said anything though.

I APOLAGIZE AND REMOVE ALL OF MY THOUGHTS FROM THIS FORUM. FORGET I SAID ANYTHING

 

[Húrin Thalion]

Take it easy MorgulKing, just because I make a point doesn't mean I hate you and wish you to leave TTF, we must all be able to take constructive criticism from others, if that wasn't constructive I apologize but that was my intention. Just as a suggestion, you needn't be all knowing or rude when answering to something.

Húrin Thalion

 

[BlackCaptain]

thanks for ur... reassurance. People seemed very confused with my ideas, so i withdrew them...