The Final ⚔️battle.......

[Gloer]

I am not taking it to extremes

1. i know it is a book, a story, some lines of language

2. but then any constructed worldview is just language

3. reality is what one can see arround

4. but already making a theory of what one is seeing is ultimately fiction

5. what makes it "true" and real is that it does not contradict with observations ie. it is not proven false

6.scientific world view is an elaborate piece of fiction and fantasy, even better than M-E

7. reality is the observations we make, how we understand it is already a sort of imaginary construct, a model for understanding, a model to help us act in the world

8. a mythical model might help us act in a world that we live in, most ethics are modeled in fiction, allegory, tales, myths etc... they are not just stories

9. it is effecting human behaviour how one thinks the world ends ( and if one thinks it ends or goes in cycles froever or what ever)

10. now. the real question is that even though Tolkien wrote&drafted fiction for a fantasy world, he also wrote about an issue encompassing everything: how does it all end? good or bad?

 

[Arvedui]

I came late to this thread, but there is one thing here that intigues me:

I think that part of the Turin is not going to happen.

Tolkien after all was familiar with the germanic mythology of Ragnaroyk. The end is grim and final. Everything falls and perishes Thor, Odin and Loke all fall with their warriors that have waited in Valhalla and the giants win.

I can't understand why this should mean that what the professor wrote should not happen? There is, after all, a difference between the Edda, and the works of JRRT. The most important part in this discussion is that there is no figure like Eru/Illuvatar in the Edda. There, the chief God is Odin, but he can't be compared to Odin. If he could be compared to any character in The Sil, it would have to be Manwë. Sort of 'first among equals'.

IMO, Eru is almighty. Therefore, Good will prevail, and all Evil will perish.

 

[Gloer]

Turin's part was not decided

Tolkien had several drafts, he didn't settle the idea. He played with it but didn't make a decision.

Turin is a bit far fetched to be the avenger. I think Tolkien was trying to have the Christ saviour type of figure there to fight Eru's fight. But Turin? Why not Hurin?

Edda has a bad ending because norse gods were mortal. It was the Saint Ulfilas who converted the goths and he used this method. He showed how unworthy, flawed and weak the norse gods were. They were born and so they would be dead too. They did not create the world, so the world did not need them to exist. This was quite convincing: You just had to have something above the old gods, a creator, the beginning and the end. Edda has no God almighty, you are right, and that is why it probably must end like it did and M-E like it was planned.

 

[FoolOfATook]

Gloer- just out of curiosity, where did you learn that story? I'm intrigued to read more about this Saint Ulfilas.

 

[BlackCaptain]

gloer, arent you aware of the fact that Tolkien himself, said SEVERAL times that none of his stories were Alligoies? Why would he stop now? And i agree with Arvedui. In the end, Eru, The superior to everyone, including Melkor, would come down from werever if he had to, in the very end to save his world. But that is just if he absolutely had to. at least i think so

 

[Gloer]

Ulfilas... well Gibbon's "Decline and fall

of the Roman Empire" has that story:

http://www.ccel.org/g/gibbon/decline/volume1/chap37.htm#conversion
"
"Admit," says the sagacious disputant, "whatever they are pleased to assert of the fabulous and carnal genealogy of their gods and goddesses, who are propagated from each other. From this principle deduce their imperfect nature and human infirmities, the assurance they were born, and the probability that they will die. At what time, by what means, from what cause, were the eldest of the gods or goddesses produced? Do they still continue, or have they ceased, to propagate? If they have ceased, summon your antagonist to declare the reason of this strange alteration. If they still continue, the number of the gods must become infinite and shall we not risk, by the indiscreet worship of some impotent deity, to excite the resentment of his jealous superior? The visible heavens and earth, the whole system of the universe, which may be conceived by the mind, is it created or eternal? If created, how or where could the gods themselves exist before the creation? If eternal, how could they assume the empire of an independent and pre-existing world? Urge these arguments with temper and moderation; insinuate, at seasonable intervals, the truth and beauty of the Christian revelation; and endeavour to make the unbelievers ashamed without making them angry."
"

 

[Gloer]

It doesn't matter

what Tolkien wants us to think he was doing.

Tolkien turns out to be quite a propagandist sometimes.

 

[Eledhwen]

I haven't read HoME V, but the quote above looks familiar to me.

Morgoth's return, with a reign of terror, and his final overthrow by heaven's forces is the same as what happens to Satan in the Bible (Then there is a new heaven and a new earth etc.)

My point is that, just as the Bible says this earth can be redeemed though it continues to decay miserably, so Tolkien can do the same for Middle-Earth.

I love the idea of the Elves returning. I expect Tolkien didn't want to be explicit about the fate of men after the final battle out of reverence for his own, real world beliefs. There's no way the Biblical fate of man can be grafted onto Middle-Earth without writing something contrary to what the Bible says - the existence of Elves makes that impossible.

 

[Beleg]

Ah! Actually as i have just read, Written By M.M Tolkien is a narrater. He is narrating a tale not conceving it. In most place we will find that Tolkien has used the words, "will" or "would". Besides what other authority do you have other then the words of Professor to negate his own saying, whether it be too vauge or not? Tolkien created his own world. What he says is like Divine Law and we can't argue with it. However If their is any vagueness in his words then we can discuss it and try to find anyother quote less ambigous and where the meaning is more clear.
About the Fate of Turin, i think the above mentioned (On page1) point is the only one in which the fate of Turin is declared. And as far as i can see it is quiet clear. TOlkien is narrating that Mandos said, He is narrating, which means it has allready been done. So we cant disagree with it.

 

[Turambar07]

Alright, I am just starting to read the HOME series. Could someone tell me what book or where i could find the most information on the last battle? Also what Turin are we talking about? Turin the first, Turin (Turambar) because I thought he killed himself after he slayed Glaurung. Please correct me if I am wrong. Also please tell me where I can find this info on the last battle. I have read the Silmarillion several times and it does not talk about it much at all. I've read the book of lost tales 1, and all the LOTR books, and am currently reading Unfinished Tales. Please help me. Thanx in advance.

 

[redline2200]

Turambar07, I can't help you much except by saying that the Turin that they are talking about is Turin (Turambar), son of Hurin and Morwen.

 

[Turambar07]

Alright, thats good to know. Thanx. Now if anyone else can give me the location of all this information on the last battle, please do so. Like is it in any of the HOME books?

 

[gate7ole]

It can be found in a few HOME books (1, 2, 4, 5), which the last one (The lost road) having the biggest description of the LAst Battle.

 

[Walter]

Actually I do sense quite some resemblance between the "Last Battle" (QS(E)§§31-2; as quoted by gate7ole earlier) and the end of the Volospá in the Poetic Edda. After the ragna rök(transl.: "the fate/doom of the gods") a new world arises from the waves and a new "golden age" begins and finally the "dark dragon" sinks:

59. Now do I see | the earth anew
Rise all green | from the waves again;
The cataracts fall, | and the eagle flies,
And fish he catches | beneath the cliffs.

60. The gods in Ithavoll | meet together,
Of the terrible girdler | of earth they talk,
And the mighty past | they call to mind,
And the ancient runes | of the Ruler of Gods.

61. In wondrous beauty | once again
Shall the golden tables | stand mid the grass,
Which the gods had owned | in the days of old,
. . . . . . . . . .

62. Then fields unsowed | bear ripened fruit,
All ills grow better, | and Baldr comes back;
Baldr and Hoth dwell | in Hropt's battle-hall,
And the mighty gods: | would you know yet more?

63. Then Hönir wins | the prophetic wand,
. . . . . . . . . .
And the sons of the brothers | of Tveggi abide
In Vindheim now: | would you know yet more?

64. More fair than the sun, | a hall I see,
Roofed with gold, | on Gimle it stands;
There shall the righteous | rulers dwell,
And happiness ever | there shall they have.

65. There comes on high, | all power to hold,
A mighty lord, | all lands he rules.
. . . . . . . . . .
. . . . . . . . . .

66. From below the dragon | dark comes forth,
Nithhogg flying | from Nithafjoll;
The bodies of men on | his wings he bears,
The serpent bright: | but now must I sink.

But also in the bible we find Satan's Doom and a new world that arises:

Satan's Doom

When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth--Gog and Magog--to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God's people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

...

The New Jerusalem

Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away."

He who was seated on the throne said, "I am making everything new!" Then he said, "Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true."

 

[Niniel]

I do see the similarity; it would be nice to see if there are more religions/mythology in which this idea comes forward. Tolkien muist be influenced by this, but I don't think he ever wrote what exactly would happen after the Final battle.

 

[Bucky]

You can't have Morgoth there in person!?
People would laugh him out!

Kind of like when Satan falls to earth?
Well, he'll be hiding as a man known as the anti-christ.

There is no doubt Morgoth is somewhat based on Satan, both beginning & end.

I agree that there's no definitive ending, it's just drafts.

I'm reading HoME #10 & it's filled with differences in the published Silmarillion.......

I mean, I keep reading 'Fionwe' here.
Fionwe didn't make any finished published works that I know of......

So, take it with a grain of salt.

For the record, I findit very hard to believe that the Valar are too tired to keep Melkor at bay but a screwed up man who killed himself can slay Morgoth......

 

[Inderjit S]

'Fioinwe' is the pre-cursor of Eonwe. He is here the son of Manwe, When the idea of Valarin pro-creation was dropped, he was changed to Eonwe herald of Manwe. The idea of Valarin pro-creation was dropped in the writing of the Latter Quenta Silmarillion (HoME 10). The problem with the texts of the Quentas' and Annals in HoME 10 and 21 and to lesser a extent HoME 5, is that C.T gives them in their uneditted forms. So wheras there may be passage from the earlier parts from the Latter Quenta Silmarillion and they listed 'Fionwe' son of Manwe, but in the course of writing the 'Publsihed Silmarillion' C.T would have altered this passage to 'Eonwe' herald of Manwe to keep that text in synct with Tolkien's later works on the subject.

 

[Helcaraxë]

I expect Tolkien didn't want to be explicit about the fate of men after the final battle out of reverence for his own, real world beliefs.

Actually, Tolkien does explain the fate of men.

Though it is said that a mightier far shall be woven before the seat of Iluvatar by the choirs of both the Ainur and the Sons of Men after the Great End.

--BoLT 1

And later in the Sil...

Though it has been said that a greater still shall be made by the Choirs of the Ainur and the Children of Iluvatar after the End of Days.

Note that the emendation from "Sons of Men" to "Children of Iluvatar" still includes men in the Second Music. Curiously, it seems to be the fate of theElves that Tolkien was unsure of, not men.

I agree that these are just drafts. But because Tolkien's later drafts are far closer to his complete conception than are the earlier ones, these should be taken as fact; they most accurately represent Tolkien's revised vision.

MB