The inevitability of decay

HLGStrider · Dec 1, 2003

I think it would be a stretch to say HT's post refers to conservative in a political way. More of a philosophical way.

Húrin Thalion · Dec 1, 2003

Yes, thank you for that HLGStrider.

However, the voyage of Eärendil, think of what made him do it. He wanted to save and maintain the Elves and the Edain! Regardign Turgon, a sally was not necessarily the right thing to do, even if ti is easy to think so since Tuor, the "hero" did. It could just as well have ended with the Gondothlim being surrounded upon the plains and slain. Morevore, those are select and rather concrete example, I was talking about it in a more abstract and open way.

And you can get as carried away as you like, I just don't see the politics in this..... Oh, I am not a conservative, the opposite in fact, a socialist, or social democrat if you like. Come to think fo it, feels like we are fighting an impossible battle here, maintaining our welfare system despite the changes in the world and the enemy within, not to get harsh enough to compare the right wingers to Uldor the accursed and his men.

Måns

HLGStrider · Dec 2, 2003

I am a conservative. . .the Libertarian Capitalist type

I still stick with my answer.

Also they learned to listen to lies of bad guys. . .

Mouth of Sauron · Dec 2, 2003

Good point, I forgot all about that!

The head of gold=Babylon
The trunk of silver=Persian Empire
The waist & thighs of bronze=Alexandrian Empire/Greece
The legs of iron=Roman Empire
The feet of clay=???

The idea here is basically the same, only with empires instead of Ages. The metals decrease in preciousness and worth, and finally we end up with clay, which is abundant and therefore worthless. A fitting symbol for modern times...

Húrin Thalion · Dec 2, 2003

Regarding the cutting down of this thread, it was NOT odne by the evil mods but by me. I am also interested in the Roman empire and has studied it quite a bit. If you want to discuss it with me, just PM me and I will reply.

GG, still waiting for the continuation of your last PM. You said you agreed with me that Augustus was a genius, but I said quite the opposite, that he established an at least formally legal form for his government but failed in most other aspects. However, I will take that in the PM.

Regarding your answer, HLGStrider. You are talking abouyt very concrete reasons, and tehy are rather the symptoms than the causes of decay. I am not talking about a single case cases, but a tendency through the history of ME.... Read my posts again, carefully, and think them over.

Måns

HLGStrider · Dec 3, 2003

The opening post dealt with Numenor. I think those were the reasons behind Numenor's downfall, not the symptoms.

Other situations had different reasons.

You can say that there is an overall force of decay, but unless there is a source of that force (pardon the accidental rhyme) it all goes to coincidence, which can't be very conclusive.

I really don't think we can find any cause other than axioms (all good things come to an end).

Húrin Thalion · Dec 3, 2003

Then you have obviously not understood my point or thread, read again, post again, post right.

Måns

HLGStrider · Dec 4, 2003

I'm sorry, but your post is a little confusing, as you said you got carried away.

Why is this decay so inevitable? Why does what is great not last?

This is the point right?

I thought I answered it in my last post.

You can say that there is an overall force of decay, but unless there is a source of that force (pardon the accidental rhyme) it all goes to coincidence, which can't be very conclusive.

This answers why decay is so inevitable. ..or more of says why we can't answer it.

Your first posts lists two (and in passing three) instances of decay and lists possible reasons. Then you ask why. I gave knew reasons for the decay and said there was no reason.

What more do you want? A sonet? I can do sonets!

laurelindorenan · Dec 4, 2003

I think that decay must be inevitable. What power is there in the world strong enough to resist time? Even the strongest have to fall. This may also be a good thing, because it can give rise to new life, a new world and perhaps a more sophisticated life.

HLGStrider · Dec 6, 2003

That didn't happen, however.

This thread sort of ties in with my brother's constant critisism joke of the Lord of the Rings.

That there was absolutely no technilogical advances from the Last Alliance to the War of the Ring.

He says they should have at least got up to air planes, or something like that.

And he's right. Advancement seems negilible at best. There isn't any change. Tolkien's world had a constant culture, economy, and technology. The only thing that seems to change is the languages.

Which can be explained if you want to be realisitic:

Tolkien wasn't a sociologist, economist, or technician. He was a linguist/philologist.

but who wants be to realistic?

Gandalf The Grey · Dec 6, 2003

...
.....
.......

Here's a quote I deem bears on this conversation:

"... but Melkor too was there from the first, and he meddled in all that was done, turning it if he might to his own desires and purposes" -- Ainulindalë

Hullo Elgee,

I like your answer. (For reference I'll quote you below):

A. Growing fear, or non-acceptance, of death
B. Loss of respect for the Valar.
C. Loss of respect for the Elder.

Húrin Thalion,

What is your reasoning for considering Elgee's answer to be representative of symptoms rather than of causes? Perhaps there are instances where symptoms might also themselves be causes?

In fact, I would daresay that Melkor, and later on, his apprentice Sauron, wielded "a tendency through the history of ME," as you say, to spread fear of death, disprespect even in the form of downright and utter forgetfulness of the Valar, and estrangement between races (for example, Men and Elves, or Dwarves and Elves, hence "loss of respect for the Eldar") ... and in this light I see merit in Elgee's answer.

Looking forward to a cordial exchange of ideas,

Gandalf the Grey

Lúthien Séregon · Dec 6, 2003

Decay seems to be a theme intertwined with the fate of humankind especially. A quote from the Return of the King:

“If Gondor has such men still in these days of fading, great must have been its glory in the days of its rising.”
“And doubtless the good stone-work is the older and was wrought in the first building,” said Gimli. “It is ever so with the things that Men begin: there is a frost in Spring, or a blight in Summer, and they fail of their promise.”
“Yet seldom do they fail of their seed,” said Legolas. “And that will lie in the dust and rot to spring up again in times and places unlooked-for. The deeds of Men will outlast us, Gimli.”
“And yet come to naught in the end but might-have-beens, I guess,” said the Dwarf.
“To that the Elves know not the answer,” said Legolas.

The frost or blight that Gimli refers to is indicative of the dark seed planted by Melkor in humankind’s hearts, as they fell under his shadow more so than the Elves and the Dwarves, I think. The decay of humankind continued long after Melkor’s downfall, failing of the things they began through doubt and fear. Moral decay is a part of that shadow, as referred to by the Messengers trying to convince the people of Numenor that death was a gift from Iluvatar, and fear of it is a result of the shadow of Melkor living still. This fear and doubt caused the loss of respect for the Eldar and the Valar, and as a consequence more estrangement between the races, and therefore decline in understanding and culture.

The decline of the Elves and Dwarves seems to be a different nature, although estrangement between Elves and Dwarves is also a factor. The Elves and Dwarves’ works and cultures were diminished as a result or during the time of Morgoth’s dominion of Middle-Earth, and his uprising, such as the death of Feanor or the unleashing of the Balrogs. Hence, their fate was shadowed more from battle or death, and the eventual departing of the Elves to the Undying Lands. Their existence upon Middle-Earth faded, whilst the deeds of humans lived on, but only as “might-have-beens”.

In short, Melkor was used to represent the source of the evil and corruption that triggered the events leading to decline and decay.

I'm referring mostly to sources within Tolkien's writing itself, and not to outside philosophies or moral understandings, as I think that all of these should be tied in within Lord of the Rings. I apologize if this is not what was intended by this thread however.

Lantarion · Dec 6, 2003

'The Silmarillion', 'Of the Voyage of Eärendil and the War of Wrath'
But Morgoth himself the Valar thrust through the Door of Night beyond the Walls of the World, into the Timeless Void; and a guard is set for ever on those walls, and Eärendil keeps watch upon the ramparts of the sky. Yet the lies that Melkor, the mighty and accursed, Morgoth Bauglir, the Power of Teror and of Hate, sowed in the hearts of Elves and Men are a seed that does not die and cannot be destroyed; and ever and anon it sprouts anew, and will bear fruit even unto the latest days.

Gandalf The Grey · Dec 6, 2003

* Nods agreement with and appreciation for the posts of Lúthien Séregon and Lantarion, as their words and quotes add weight and build upon his own previous post (wherein he already addressed Elgee and Húrin Thalion with much the same response) with its quote from the Ainulindalë and commentary regarding Melkor's intrusion from the beginning carrying through as a trend down through the Ages in Middle Earth. *

Lantarion · Dec 6, 2003

* Nods agreement with and appreciation for the posts of Lúthien Séregon and Lantarion, as their words and quotes add weight and build upon his own previous post (wherein he already addressed Elgee and Húrin Thalion with much the same response) with its quote from the Ainulindalë and commentary regarding Melkor's intrusion from the beginning carrying through as a trend down through the Ages in Middle Earth. *

Uhh... glad to hear it..

Úlairi · Dec 8, 2003

LMAO, or one could quite simply blame the second law of thermodynamics. Confound science, we are talking science fiction here!

Cheers,

Ulairi.

Húrin Thalion · Dec 11, 2003

Ok, sorry if I haven't replied here in a while, there's a lot to do before the vacancies. I will have to go to school in exactly 14 minutes, so this won't be nearly as good as it should have been, this thread deservs a better answer than this.

HLGStrider, I am not talking about lack of development. I am talking about the nature of these stories, there is always decay involved. The reasons do not matter, but what we can see is that the parts that we read the most about is the one of decay. For example, how much do we read about the war of the Noldor against Morgoth before Dagor Bragollach? How much of the Akallabêth is taken up by the corruption of Númenor? I think this is an interesting and highly conscious choice by Tolkien. Very aestetic, it depicts men's and elves' eternal struggle agaisnt the ever approaching horde, like children on a castle of sand. There is also another enemy, the moral corruption form within, the constant waning of power and skill which si waht I am talking about I do no think tghat they should ahev invented the aeroplane, I am just noting a seemingly endless decline in knowledge and skill, after a short period of learning coems along one of forgetting.

Måns

HLGStrider · Dec 11, 2003

Actually, I don't think I've read the Akallabêth. I exhausted my libraries Tolkien books years ago, and (it's part of the HoME, right?), I don't believe it is among them. I have only read one of the volumes of the HoME and after I read it it disappeared from my library and that was about five years ago. . .that is the main reason I stick to the LotR's section of this forum. I don't have the ability to look up anything else or the memory to remember what I read back when I was thirteen and fourteen with enough exactness. . .

but, if that is what we're going to discuss, isn't this thread in the wrong section?

Úlairi · Dec 11, 2003

Perhaps we are not really referring to decay, but more what Tolkien defined as "'change' viewed as a regrettable thing", and this was the purpose of creating the Three, to hold back time.

Letters of JRRT: Letter #181 To Michael Straight (drafts)
"Mere change as such is not represented as 'evil': it is the unfolding of the story and to refuse this is of course against the design of God."

You would have to be a fool if you do not realize that Tolkien is referring to the Valar. Tolkien says many times in 'Letters' that the Elves 'wanted to have their cake and eat it too'. They wanted Middle-Earth to be just like Valinor, and this is where Sauron found the weakness of the Elves. Hence, decay was completely inexorable, as the Elves were acting against the wishes of the Valar. A simple answer to what was thought of as a complex question. However, don't take my word for it, there are so many references in 'Letters' about this topic.

Arvedui · Dec 12, 2003

Originally posted by HLGStrider
Actually, I don't think I've read the Akallabêth. I exhausted my libraries Tolkien books years ago, and (it's part of the HoME, right?)

No.
It is in The Silmarillion, with the under-title The Downfall of Númenor.

The inevitability of decay

All Knowing Magic Cat

King of Crisps

All Knowing Magic Cat

New Member

King of Crisps

All Knowing Magic Cat

King of Crisps

All Knowing Magic Cat

laurelindorenan

Guest

All Knowing Magic Cat

Visionary Spirit

Member

no house

Visionary Spirit

no house

Crying in the Wilderness

King of Crisps

All Knowing Magic Cat

Crying in the Wilderness

Stargazer

Share this page

Similar threads

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency