The inevitability of decay

Originally posted by Ulairi
You would have to be a fool if you do not realize that Tolkien is referring to the Valar.

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Well, I wouldn't be so sure.. After all the quote is "...against the design of God", not "of the Gods". As I see it, 'God' here probably means Eru Ilúvatar, or perhaps the Christian God to Tolkien himself.

But you have a point when you say the Elves wanted M-e to be alike to Valinor.. Haha and it seems that when it didn't work, they just left to see the real thing! What quitters eh..

Elgee Akallabêth is the Adûnaic translation of the word 'downfall'. I'm surprised you haven't read it, it's in the Silmarillion.

Originally posted by Lantarion
Well, I wouldn't be so sure.. After all the quote is "...against the design of God", not "of the Gods". As I see it, 'God' here probably means Eru Ilúvatar, or perhaps the Christian God to Tolkien himself.

But you have a point when you say the Elves wanted M-e to be alike to Valinor.. Haha and it seems that when it didn't work, they just left to see the real thing! What quitters eh..

Elgee Akallabêth is the Adûnaic translation of the word 'downfall'. I'm surprised you haven't read it, it's in the Silmarillion.

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You know what I mean Lantarion, and I don't have a point at all. It is Tolkien's own point on his own text! Not mine! Letters seems to be somewhat neglected here, and most of the answers to many of the questions I have are in there.

Wait, I have read it then. . .I just didn't recongize the name.

It's funny, for some reason, I'd see that refered to somewhere else and assumed it was a very long poem Tolkien had written. . .I don't know what gave me that impression.

I haven't read it in about two years, however.

Originally posted by Ulairi
You know what I mean Lantarion

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I suppose, but I think it's a very substantial differentiation, Valar or Eru.. Which has the actual supreme governing power of decision? The Valar have great but only limited control of Arda, while Ilúvatar can change anything he wants (presumably).

ibid.
and I don't have a point at all. It is Tolkien's own point on his own text! Not mine!

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Doh! Right thanks for the correction.

You're welcome. Also, I believe we would acknowledge Eru as that power.

Actually, I don't think the decay was because of an internal problem. Change is inevitable. Nothing can remain static forever. The stature and power of the Numenoreans was lessened simply bacause it could not remain as it was and still be subject to the implaccable laws of change. As was said before, Tolkien seems to have believed that all things must end, even if they only give way to new beginnings. The first age ended, the power and glory of the Eldar in Middle-earth was diminished, and the second age began. The second age passed, making way for the third age which was less in its power and glory both of good and evil than the Second. Such is the way of things.

MB

Actually, I don't think the decay was because of an internal problem. Change is inevitable. Nothing can remain static forever. The stature and power of the Numenoreans was lessened simply bacause it could not remain as it was and still be subject to the implaccable laws of change. As was said before, Tolkien seems to have believed that all things must end, even if they only give way to new beginnings. The first age ended, the power and glory of the Eldar in Middle-earth was diminished, and the second age began. The second age passed, making way for the third age which was less in its power and glory both of good and evil than the Second. Such is the way of things.

MB

Good sum up, I think.

Originally posted by MorgothsBane
Nothing can remain static forever.

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Except the level of technology in Arda.

Once again, usually, development is a continuous process and described as such. In LotR and the Silmarillion, it is described as an unstooppable process of rotting, the old world has to be gone before the new can take it's place. The old world of the elves and the good men seems deemed to go under, it is always struggling against the overwhelming odds, before the elves at last pass into the west and men, they must become assimilated at last. This has to do with the obvious differences between elves and men, but I prefer to look at it as an aestetic theme in Tolkien's works.

Måns

There was no decay, decay was merely 'change' viewed as a regrettable thing. The world had to change, and the Elves had to accept that change. But they couldn't, which is not why the world around them decayed, it is why they dwindled. But the Age of Men was just beginning.

That's true, but the Fourth Age (and presumably, all subsequent ages as well) was supposed to be the Age of Man, and it can be said that the world was losing something with the passing of the Elves - something which resisted change, because they resisted change. So by this part of the story Tolkien may have been giving the idea of a remembered Golden Age a plausible explanation. He did this a lot, taking old myths and then explaining the reasons for them.

The explanation might go like this:

Change is inevitable, and the Elves don't like change, so they try to keep things the way they are (they're kind of like conservatives in that way). But eventually they become weary of the world and begin to leave it. The result of this is that their power to preserve the status quo is also slowly withdrawn from the world, and the world begins to change at an ever faster rate. The more Elves leave, the faster the rate of change (though of course this is a gross oversimplification; Sauron had a big hand in changing the world as well - but the Elves were also collectively resisting his power to do this).

So to someone who was used to the world changing only slowly, it would seem as though the world was suddenly going to hell in a handbasket, when really it was just resuming its natural course, which had been interrupted to a certain extent by the Elves. And later, the racial memory of an earlier time that was blessed by the Elves would resurface as the myth of a Golden Age. Seeking to answer the question of why such an age gave way to the current state of the world, philosophers would then invent a theory based on the succession of ages due to the inevitability of decay, and looking back, they would surmise that there had not only been a Golden Age, but a Silver Age which succeeded it, followed by a Bronze Age, etc.

Anyway, that's my take on it.

I agree completely.

MB

A couple of clicks and I ended up having browsed to this old thread...

It's quite understandable to think -- even to scoff -- that it's a flaw in Tolkien's histories that there is no technological development across all 3000 years of Gondor's history, like there would be in "any society". But Tolkien obviously chose not to, and it's usually dangerous to argue with him!

For one thing he had to have a decline, because his plan was to provide a rich mythical alternative history of our world. This obviously couldn't have just developed onwards and upwards until it became ours without clashing with the history that we already have. Ultimately it all had to die out and leave wilderness with no more than scattered barbarians from which our accepted history could start, only eventually rediscovering the technology of steel etc.

To 'play the game' we have to accept this and then try to figure out why it was the way he described.

There has to be a fundamental difference between Tolkien's phase of imaginary history and our more modern history in which "any society" would achieve technological advancement.
I think the difference has to be in the 'religion' of Gondor, which styled itself (one of) the Realm(s) in Exile, dominated by the Faithful descendants of Númenor. Their religion was to maintain the faith of Eru as described by their friends the Elves, in which lores such as technology were the gifts of Eru (possibly via the Valar) given to the Númenoreans, but lost in the Akallabêth. Perhaps it was inconceivable, or perhaps it was even 'heretical' that they should try to rediscover or reinvent these things that were a divine blessing. Perhaps this was why their greatest minds turned not to engineering and invention, but to potions seeking to prolong their lives, or to foolishly seeking the secrets of the future in the stars (as described in a speech of Faramir's).

It is tempting even to suggest that the Valar actively prevented technological development, having seen the Vision of Eru as not including any technologies beyond a certain level. This admittedly ought to be unlikely, since we do know of the development of blasting fire that seems very similar to gunpowder, and since we are told that the Will of Eru is "as fate" to all the Children except Men.

--Os.