The Intelligence of 👁️Sauron

[Kavrangoz]

Have you read Silmarillion?If you did what do you remember about Sauron?I remember that he was the most intelligent enemy.But in the LOTR Sauron is a fool.I can't understand this.Sauron HAD TO win.
How can he be so mindless?That is not logical.If he had just protected the entrance of Mount Doom? What could Aragorn do?Denethor was not a fool.He saw that he had no chances.Sauron's defeat is all luck.
I would prefer it to the help of Valar.It would be very good if Valar came from Valinor and defeated Sauron.Anyway i say that Sauron is not a fool.

 

[Ancalagon]

Hello and Well Met my friend.

I am a little unsure as to whether you consider Sauron a fool or not???

As far as his protection of Mordor is concerned, I don't really think he was that foolish, for he had guards across every station. Camps and forces positioned towards the gate and Shelob protecting the path through Cirith Ungol. No-one would be expected to get past her and the only other entrance would have been through the Black Gate. Furthermore, The Watchers held the entrance to the Orc tower at Cirith Ungol, who raised the alarm when any passed between them.

Sauron has never really been foolish in his plans, though he was, in my opinion foolish in investing so much power in the ring. This itself became his 'achilles heel' which once lost, left him weaker and more vulnerable that he ought to have been. Saurons real weakness was his underestimation of his enemy and his confidence in his own forces. Pride and lust and greed for power are a theme throughout the Sil and Rings stories, yet in the end all are doomed to fail, usually by there own arrogance.

 

[aragil]

I almost totally agree with you Anc, except I would say "Saurons real weakness was his underestimation of his enemy and his confidence in force in general." He just couldn't conceive of someone possessing the Ring and not being completely overcome by a desire for power. That someone could attempt to destroy him by destroying the Ring never crossed his mind (until it was too late). This is not being a fool, this is just a certain way of thinking. I should point out that this way of thinking led to Sauron's ascension for two ages of the World, so it's a little unfair to the big guy to look back and say it was foolish.

 

[Rúmil]

I would say that Sauron is foolish; as a Maia, he is very wise, but he could only understanding the works of evil; good deeds are beyond his reckoning:

But the only measure that he knows is desire, desire for power; and so he judges all hearts. Into his heart the thought will not enter that any will refuse it, that having the Ring we may seek to destroy it. If we seek this, we shall put him out of reckoning.

lotr, the Coucil of Elrond, chap2 book2. and in the Sil chap 24:

for to him that is pitiless the deeds of pity are ever strange and beyond reckoning.

In short, being evil made Sauron an idiot, despite his innate cunning: he is very dangerous for those consumed by pride, or jealousy, or lust for power, because they think like him, he can put himself in their place; but good being now wholly strange to him, he cannot guess what a good person would do. He can only be defeated by one totally selfless, and that is not easy to find, so he could have been thought pretty safe; but come such a one and he is lost.

 

[FINGOLFIN]

Sauron was not a fool

Your point is well taken. However, desire for power was his true achilles heel. Desiring the return of his ring to gain power was his entire aim. That being said, he never would have guessed that this power would be destroyed. He instead, was waiting to see who was going to weild the ring, and thus its power, against him. It would never enter his mind that, once attained, this power would be avoided or destroyed...from his point of view he would have considered it illogical.

 

[Rúmil]

We seem to agree all along the line, Fingolfin.

 

[Ancalagon]

He instead, was waiting to see who was going to weild the ring, and thus its power, against him. It would never enter his mind that, once attained, this power would be avoided or destroyed...from his point of view he would have considered it illogical.

A fair point, though it must be said that Sauron was already mustering his forces, making pacts with the Corsairs and peoples of the South long before he knew the One had been discovered. He had resigned himself to the fact that his Ring was lost, but not destroyed and even then his strength was still potent enough to acheive his aims.

The fact remains that his hand was forced earlier than he had hoped because of this discovery, especially having to send out the Nine. Sauron without the Ring was a greater power than most of his enemies, yet he was sensible enough to want to contain his strength until such a time as deemed his force ready.

This was apparent at the Council of Elrond because they also knew that they did not have the strength in numbers to effectively remove Sauron from Mordor or even prevent his strength in attacking their lands.

What power still remains lies with us, here in Imladris, or with Cirdan at the Havens, or in Lórien. But have they the strength, have we here the strength to withstand the Enemy, the coming of Sauron at the last, when all else is overthrown?'
`I have not the strength,' said Elrond; `neither have they.'

I wonder though if Sauron thought that the Rings destruction might be prevalent in their minds, especially since it had come so close before and he knew the minds of the Elves who wished its destruction?

 

[FINGOLFIN]

All corrret

"A fair point, though it must be said that Sauron was already mustering his forces, making pacts with the Corsairs and peoples of the South long before he knew the One had been discovered."


Re: When I read this I began trying to reconstruct the timeline involved with Saurons learning of the re-emergence of the ring. He learned it with the capture of Gollum. Aragorn states to the effect that he tracked Gollum after that for months. Then Gollum is held captive by the Elves (Length of time?). It seems fair to state that by this time Saurons power and forces (as pointed out by you) are sufficient enough to consider an attempt into Mordor as folly and even suicidal. He may never have considering a stealthy entry by a small party.


"I wonder though if Sauron thought that the Rings destruction might be prevalent in their minds, especially since it had come so close before and he knew the minds of the Elves."


It was always my understanding that the minds of the Elves remained hidden to him because of thier rings. I believe he did not even know where Rivendell and Lothlorien were.

 

[Rúmil]

He knew well enough where Rivendell and Lórien lied, he had fought against them and suffered grievious losses in the Dark Years; this quote from Lotr should help:

I say to you, Frodo, that even as I speak to you, I perceive the Dark Lord and know his mind, or all of his mind that concerns the Elves. And he gropes ever to see me and my thought. But still the door is closed!

The Mirror of Galadriel, chap8 book2. This means Sauron was lured in spirit to where the Three were (he was smart enough to see what was mking Lórien so different) but by the potency of the mind of Galadriel, enhanced by the Ring, but basically beacause of her own power, he was foiled.

 

[Ithrynluin]

That's an excellent example Rumil.
And I don't consider Sauron to be foolish,he just measured other peoples' minds according to his own way of reasoning - just like Saruman he didn't give much thought to small,seemingly unimportant things,like hobbits.And that was his downfall.

 

[Rúmil]

I agree with ithrynluin; that about sums it up, IMO.

 

[FINGOLFIN]

To Rumils Point

Read the quote you gave again.

She knows his mind by the power of her ring and the mirror. He (Sauron) however, "gropes"(implying "tries" but fails) to know hers, but can't, because "the door is closed" by the power of her ring.

I will look for the passages that led me to believe that Sauron knows not where the Hidden Valley of Rivendell is, and how Lorien is shrouded in mist to the mind of Sauron. I will post this soon as possible.

 

[Ancalagon]

And he gropes ever to see me and my thought. But still the door is closed!

I disagree with you that Sauron knew where these places lay, for they remained hidden from him as long as Galadriel and Elrond wielded their rings. He may have guessed the vicinity or region, but that was never enough, for he could not penetrate their minds or unweave the magics that surrounded their lands. This actual reminds me of The Girdle of Melian and the sorceries and mazes she surrounded Doriath with.

Yet, it is not from these two that I guess Sauron would have gleaned his information regarding the Elves choice to destroy the ring. He would know well the stories of Isildur and his failure to cast the ring into the Fire. The story was also known to Saruman, and who knows what information Sauron was able to derive from him via The Palantir?

 

[Ithrynluin]

Re: To Rumils Point

Originally posted by FINGOLFIN
Read the quote you gave again.

She knows his mind by the power of her ring and the mirror. He (Sauron) however, "gropes"(implying "tries" but fails) to know hers, but can't, because "the door is closed" by the power of her ring.

I will look for the passages that led me to believe that Sauron knows not where the Hidden Valley of Rivendell is, and how Lorien is shrouded in mist to the mind of Sauron. I will post this soon as possible.

Galadriel is mighty even without the ring,she was one of Sauron's greatest enemies and was very VERY insightful,she saw into the minds of others,whether it was a hobbit,a man, an elf or a maia,she could pry their minds open like a rusty can

Sauron knew well enough where just about anything was in ME,except the Shire (which was not worth to bother with in the first place),but definitely he knew where the dwellings of 2 of his chief enemies were - Rivendell and Lothlorien.There are several examples of this:
1.His wars against Gil-Galad,besieging Rivendell,etc.
2.In UT,the Witch-king would not defy the White ring of Galadriel,nor enter into Lorien...
There's more of course but I think this is more than enough to confirm that Sauron knew about these places.

 

[aragil]

Sauron assaulted Lorien twice from Dol Guldur during the War of the Ring, so I think it is safe to say that he knew an Elven Kingdom existed there.
Anc- a teaser as you wait for Letters, there are several passages where Tolkien states that the destruction of the Ring never crossed Sauron's mind. Any plans for this never came to his ears, so apparently he never learned that Isildur was counseled to destroy the Ring.

 

[FINGOLFIN]

There seems a contradiction brewing

It may turn out that there are some contradictory passages. Wasn't the war against Gil-Galad fought at the gates of Mordor?

 

[HLGStrider]

He had resigned himself to the fact that his Ring was lost, but not destroyed and even then his strength was still potent enough to acheive his aims.

I disagree with this in part. The guy could do very well without his ring, but he was still trying to get it. That's why he captured Gollum and sent the Nazgul out.

I think that the attack on Mordor was suicidal. Aragorn or Gandalf or somebody says something like that in the RotK.... It was a desperate attempt that succeded because the ring was destroyed. Give me a minute to dig up the quote...
digging
digging
digging

Victory cannot be achieved by arms, whether you sit here to endure siege afte siege, or march out to be overwhelmed beyond he River." Gandalf

 

[Rúmil]

Sauron beseiged Imladris in SA 1695, when ME was saved by the intervention of the Númenorenans led by admiral Ciryatur; only 1500 years later was the Last Alliance formed. At the End of the Third ages, Sauron sent forces against three points: Lórien, Dale, and Minas Tirith: the War of the Ring broke out in serveral places.

Sauron knew exactly where Imladris and Lórien were.

As for the mirror, it has no power in itself. It is just a device which permits others to see with Galadriel's eyes. Galadriel's mind is enhanced by the Ring; Sauron knows where to find her, but cannot control his mind. "Groping" does not means failing to succeed inn locating her, but failing to get a hold of her mind.

As for the attack on Mordor, Gandalf says:

As Aragorn has begun, so we must go on. We must push Sauron to his last throw. We must call out his hidden strength, so that he shall empty his land. We must march out to meet him at once. We must make ourselves the bait, though his jaws should close on us. He will take that bait, in hope and in greed, for he will think that in such rashness he sees the pride of the new Ringlord: and he will say: “So! he pushes out his neck too soon and too far. Let him come on, and behold I will have him in a trap from which he cannot escape. There I will crush him, and what he has taken in his insolence shall be mine again for ever.

Its purpose was to distract Sauron's mind from the Ringbearers.

 

[emopansy]

it was hopeless to attack with so few but it was the last bit they could give frodo and sam so they could destroy the ring it was the last choice and they decided they would rather come forward than to cower to the dark till it hadclaim life land and pride(the strongest drive other than desire)

 

[Parrot]

That someone could attempt to destroy him by destroying the Ring never crossed his mind (until it was too late). This is not being a fool, this is just a certain way of thinking. I should point out that this way of thinking led to Sauron's ascension for two ages of the World, so it's a little unfair to the big guy to look back and say it was foolish.

Aragil, I don’t’ think we can completely let Sauron off the fool’s hook because he didn’t happen to think like his adversaries, as the best military leaders, or leaders in just about any walk, are required to do exactly that; “Rommel, You magnificent Bastard! I read your book!” If not foolish, he was at least dangerously myopic (nice Monday morning quarterbacking, huh).

On the flipsde, your counterpoint about dancing with the one that brought you is well taken. It reminds me of Shaara’s contention that the south might have won at Gettysburg had Lee been willing to take Longstreet’s council and dig in for a defensive siege rather than assaulting the high ground into the strength of the Union forces. This was so outside the character of Lee and the philosophy of the Confederate Army that he apparently was unwilling to even seriously consider it. So I guess you do what you're good at and let the chips fall where they may and a penny saved is a penny earned and I am out of clichés now and I am not sure what my point was and am officially babbling so I will shut up now.