The Lack of God in LOTR

[Aisteru]

For all of Tolkien's Christian influence, there seems to be a lack of a single God in LOTR. In the Silmarillion, Eru, among others, is talked about an described in detail but that is where his mention ceases. I find it surprising that a God figure would not take a more prominent role in LOTR. Was it intended (to prevent any deus ex machina-esque happenings) or accidental, perhaps an overlook while writing his books?

 

[chrysophalax]

I acn see where this topic could easily lead us into mirky waters, so I'll do my best to express my opinon without treading on any toes.

As JRRT wrote in several places, he hated allegory and wished in no way for his new mythos to resemble Christianity. Since he was versed in many different mythologies, their influence can be readily picked up on by those who have studied different belief systems.

It always seemed to me that in his stories he seems to place a greater emphasis on a type of predestination (i.e. Gandalf telling Frodo that Gollum may yet have something to do that shouldn't be hindered). Also, while it may be vague and rarely referred to, The Powers That Be do still appear to have relevance among the denizens of ME (as when Gandalf refers to being #sent back", as he still had tasks to perform). I don't think it was the travel agency in Valinor that sent him, know what I mean?

There's always the sense of being watched over, but not being interferred with and that's not necessarily a bad thing. Tolkien gave the peoples of his world the ability to make their way in the world and refreshingly enough, you never read of them blaming TPTB's for their troubles and yet, there seems to be a certain amount of accountability for deeds done as well.

Basically, if religion is what you're after, you won't find much in LoTR. Try the Silmarillion if you simply must have a dose of how Iluvatar's people related to him and his fellow gods.

 

[Gothmog]

I acn see where this topic could easily lead us into mirky waters, so I'll do my best to express my opinon without treading on any toes.

There is no need for this to lead to any mirky waters. Religion (and even politics) related directly to Tolkien and/or his works are legitimate topics of discussion here.

I will have to look for the sources (and will probably be beaten to answer by others ), but it is no accident that religion is missing from LoTR. Tolkien deliberately excluded any direct reference to religion.

 

[HLGStrider]

http://thetolkien.forum/showthread.php?t=19174

This thread sort of discusses the same subject.

My own quote from that thread:

I think Tolkien said somewhere that he purposefully avoided religion in his writings because he didn't want to try and replace his existing religion or create an allegory for it, which really are the only two choices if you add a religion to the fantasy world: make up a religion (upon which some person somewhere will start practicing it if you reach any level of fame . . . like Jedi knights) or you can do what Lewis did and take an existing religion and make a spiritual point. This point does not have to necessarily build up an existing religion, either. Pullman's work uses a very thinly veiled Catholic/Christian style church and proceeds to bring out the worst in it to turn people off from organized religion.

And I stick with that. Tolkien was a responsible man of principle who was often upset by things such as people attempting to use his names and ideas for commercial gain. I think he would've been more than a little upset to find a growing group of Eru worshipers springing up in the middle of England, and it would've happened. Perhaps he had no idea of the popularity of the Lord of the Rings, but the sales of the Hobbit (which being a children's book didn't require a deep background that would've included religion) would've been enough to make him consider it.

He also wanted to make the Lord of the Ring's a pre-Christian mythology for England, and I'm sure Gothmog will come up with other relevent quotes on the subject. Just wanted to give my two cents and the link to the above thread.

 

[Eledhwen]

There are references in The Letters of JRR Tolkien, to the deliberate exclusion of religion from The Lord of the Rings, along with other comments on the part religion played in Tolkien's life and writings. I'd love to provide references, but I'm redecorating at the moment, so can't lay my hands on my copy

 

[Aisteru]

That sound very interesting, Eledhwen. If you wouldn't mind pulling up some of those notes when you find the time, I would very much like to read them. Good luck with the redecorating!

 

[Gothmog]

For all of Tolkien's Christian influence, there seems to be a lack of a single God in LOTR. In the Silmarillion, Eru, among others, is talked about an described in detail but that is where his mention ceases. I find it surprising that a God figure would not take a more prominent role in LOTR. Was it intended (to prevent any deus ex machina-esque happenings) or accidental, perhaps an overlook while writing his books?

Here are some quotes from the published letters JRRT wrote to various people on the matter.

From Letter 131 to Milton Waldman

Of course there was and is all the Arthurian world, but powerful as it is, it is imperfectly naturalized, associated with the soil of Britain but not with English; and does not replace what I felt to be missing. For one thing its 'faerie' is too lavish, and fantastical, incoherent and repetitive. For another and more important thing: it is involved in, and explicitly contains the Christian religion.
For reasons which I will not elaborate, that seems to me fatal. Myth and fairy-story must, as all art, reflect and contain in solution elements of moral and religious truth (or error), but not explicit, not in the known form of the primary 'real' world. (I am speaking, of course, of our present situation, not of ancient pagan, pre-Christian days. And I will not repeat what I tried to say in my essay, which you read.)

Since Tolkien was intending originally to write a sequel to the Hobbit, LotR started out as another ‘Children’s Book’. However, as Tolkien elsewhere notes it ‘grew up’. In doing so, it changed style from children’s story to Myth.

Letter 142 to Robert Murray, SJ.

The Lord of the Rings is of course a fundamentally religious and Catholic work; unconsciously so at first, but consciously in the revision. That is why I have not put in, or have cut out, practically all references to anything like 'religion', to cults or practices, in the imaginary world. For the religious element is absorbed into the story and the symbolism.

Many people have used this particular quote to argue that LotR is a “Christian” story. However, they forget that Tolkien placed the story in ‘Pre-Christian’ times. It is a “fundamentally religious and Catholic work”, not because it contains ‘religion’ and ‘Christianity’ a but because it does not.

Letter 165 to Haughton Mifflin Co.

It is not 'about' anything but itself. Certainly it has no allegorical intentions, general, particular, or topical, moral, religious, or political. The only criticism that annoyed me was one that it 'contained no religion' (and 'no Women', but that does not matter, and is not true anyway). It is a monotheistic world of 'natural theology'. The odd fact that there are no churches, temples, or religious rites and ceremonies, is simply part of the historical climate depicted. It will be sufficiently explained, if (as now seems likely) the Silmarillion and other legends of the First and Second Ages are published. I am in any case myself a Christian; but the 'Third Age' was not a Christian world.

Letter 211 to Rhona Beare

The Númenóreans of Gondor were proud, peculiar, and archaic, and I think are best pictured in (say) Egyptian terms. In many ways they resembled 'Egyptians' – the love of, and power to construct, the gigantic and massive. And in their great interest in ancestry and in tombs. (But not of course in 'theology' : in which respect they were Hebraic and even more puritan – but this would take long to set out: to explain indeed why there is practically no overt 'religion', or rather religious acts or places or ceremonies among the 'good' or anti-Sauron peoples in The Lord of the Rings.) I think the crown of Gondor (the S. Kingdom) was very tall, like that of Egypt, but with wings attached, not set straight back but at an angle.

Even in the Silmarillion there is little ‘Religion’.

From Letter 156 To Robert Murray, SJ. (draft)

They thus escaped from 'religion' in a pagan sense, into a pure monotheist world, in which all things and beings and powers that might seem worshipful were not to be worshipped, not even the gods (the Valar), being only creatures of the One. And He was immensely remote.
The High Elves were exiles from the Blessed Realm of the Gods (after their own particular Elvish fall) and they had no 'religion' (or religious practices, rather) for those had been in the hands of the gods, praising and adoring Eru 'the One', Ilúvatar the Father of All on the Mt. of Aman.

The Númenóreans thus began a great new good, and as monotheists; but like the Jews (only more so) with only one physical centre of 'worship': the summit of the mountain Meneltarma 'Pillar of Heaven' – literally, for they did not conceive of the sky as a divine residence – in the centre of Númenor; but it had no building and no temple, as all such things had evil associations.

Tolkien, it seems to me, preferred that his personal religious beliefs showed in the story through the morals and ethics of his characters rather than in overt practices of devotion to “The One”.

 

[Illuin]

In my experiences with Tolkien (the letters included), I definitely identify him as a man of moral integrity who sees deeds defining a person’s character; not intellect or talk (nor religious affiliation). To me (being familiar with both); he and James thought alike - a few quotes:

"If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain.
Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone." - The Book of James

His writings were solely concerned with the moral integrity; and honorable deeds of people; not their religion. He was a devout Catholic; but you would never directly recognize this within his writings. When you witness the carnage and horror of combat (as he did); I would think that you would experience a “paradigm shift” and see the reality and cruelty of humanity; and the former game of “playing church” goes out the window. I can just see Tolkien hunkered down in a dank trench about to be assailed thinking to himself: “Now I truly understand what David was going through when Saul was pursuing him with a vengeance”. Very wise man he was. He composed an epic novel focusing on the “works” spoken of in James; yet he managed to accomplish this with the complete absence of superfluous religious dogma, rhetoric, or lectures. Smart man indeed.

 

[Mithrandir-Olor]

I can see where this topic could easily lead us into murky waters, so I'll do my best to express my opinion without treading on any toes.

As JRRT wrote in several places, he hated allegory and wished in no way for his new mythos to resemble Christianity. Since he was versed in many different mythologies, their influence can be readily picked up on by those who have studied different belief systems.

It always seemed to me that in his stories he seems to place a greater emphasis on a type of predestination (i.e. Gandalf telling Frodo that Gollum may yet have something to do that shouldn't be hindered). Also, while it may be vague and rarely referred to, The Powers That Be do still appear to have relevance among the denizens of ME (as when Gandalf refers to being #sent back", as he still had tasks to perform). I don't think it was the travel agency in Valinor that sent him, know what I mean?

There's always the sense of being watched over, but not being interfered with and that's not necessarily a bad thing. Tolkien gave the peoples of his world the ability to make their way in the world and refreshingly enough, you never read of them blaming TPTB for their troubles and yet, there seems to be a certain amount of accountability for deeds done as well.

Basically, if religion is what you're after, you won't find much in LoTR. Try the Silmarillion if you simply must have a dose of how Iluvatar people related to him and his fellow gods.

Tolkien is quite contradictory on this, I keep hearing that he hated Allegory, but Melkor is an obvious undeniable Allegory for the modern Paradise Lost inspired concept of Lucifer. There is really no way around that in my view.

The Silmarlion is is distant and mythical to the world of LOTR as LOTR is to us. Back then some direct interaciton with ebings who directly interacted with Iluvatar was possible. Still the fact that the name isn't mentioned once after Tolkien chose make the story in contunity with his Legendarium is kind of odd, Morgoth gets a couple nods, but not Eru.

 

[jallan]

Tolkien is quite contradictory on this, I keep hearing that he hated Allegory, but Melkor is an obvious undeniable Allegory for the modern Paradise Lost inspired concept of Lucifer. There is really no way around that in my view.

But Melkor is not alleogry. Melkor is not a character who is in some respects a symbol of Satan in Tolkien’s fiction. Melkor simply is Satan. Just as Milton’s Satan in Paradise Lost was also not a symbol of Satan but just Satan himself in a fictional work. The general picture of Satan as a rebel angel is common traditional Christianity, of Biblical origin (though some would today claim Biblical misinterpretation) and appears in many Christian works before Milton. For the main Biblical passage, see Isaiah 14:12–15, which contains the name “Day-star” translated in Latin to Lucifer.

These traditions were elaborated in many medieval mystery plays. See, for example, (//www.lib.rochester.edu/camelot/teams/sdnt1frm.htm) , long before Milton.

I quite deny allegory. Which just in itself shows that it is not “undeniable”. Allegory depends on at least one element standing for something else in a story, not on one element standing for itself.

The Silmarlion is distant and mythical to the world of LOTR as LOTR is to us. Back then some direct interaciton with ebings who directly interacted with Iluvatar was possible. Still the fact that the name isn't mentioned once after Tolkien chose make the story in continuity with his Legendarium is kind of odd, Morgoth gets a couple nods, but not Eru.

At no time in Tolkien’s writing of The Lord of the Rings was it not part of his main legendarium. Even The Hobbit was part of that legendarium with the character of Elrond and references to the city of Gondolin. The name “the One” appears in Appendix A, which is an English translation of Eru. I think that is, indeed, the only explicit mention in the book.

I don’t find that odd in a tale that began as a children’s book, any more than I find a lack of mention of God in George MacDonald’s fantasy odd, including his adult fantasy.

 

[Uminya]

God (in the form of Eru Iluvatar) certainly existed in Lord of the Rings, though this is only the case because that story (LoTR) is just one piece in the vast history that Tolkien created. By the time the Third Age was drawing to an end, the Ainur had already ceased to play much part at all in the comings and goings of Middle Earth, with the exception of sending the five Istari to help the Free People overcome evil. That there is little mention of the single, supreme deity of Tolkien's fantasy world in LoTR isn't that surprising. People had long since put less importance on the Ainur, much less Eru.

This really doesn't have to go into a real-world discussion of religion at all, in my opinion. Eru just wasn't important to most of the people in Middle Earth at the end of the Third Age, and so it wasn't important for the story.

 

[Mithrandir-Olor]

Melkor I view as being based on Paradise Lost, not The Bible, Paradise is Lost isn't Biblical at all, the Idea that Satan "Fell form Heaven" before Man Was created is unbiblical.

 

[jallan]

Melkor I view as being based on Paradise Lost, not The Bible, Paradise is Lost isn't Biblical at all, the Idea that Satan "Fell form Heaven" before Man Was created is unbiblical.

The idea that Satan fell cannot be proved from Biblical texts. But it is a part of medieval Jewish mythology, and Christian mythology, and Islamic mythology written long before Milton ever put a pen to text, based largely on the text from Isaiah that I provided, although I admit it doesn’t “prove” it at all. If you don’t “view” any of the texts early than Milton, than you are ignoring that the story of the fall of Satan long predates Milton, as Tolkien would undoubtedly have known from his reading in Middle English, if nothing else, and which many other people know.

I view Melkor as NOT primarily based on Milton’s Paradise Lost.

See (//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucifer) for many earlier versions of the story of the fall of Satan. If you continue to “view” Melkor is being based on Paradise Lost, it may be because you are too close-minded to look at anything earlier than Paradise Lost. Milton elaborated a common story from Christian mythology.

From letter 183 of Letters of J. R. R. Tolkien: “In my story I do not deal in Absolute Evil. I do not think there is such a thing, since that is Zero. I do not think that at any rate any ‘rational being’ is wholly evil. Satan fell.”

The tradition that “Satan fell” may not be Biblical, but it has long been accepted by Christians in general, long before Milton.

 

[Mithrandir-Olor]

When is the issue not If, Isaiah is a Prophetic text, as is Revelation 12 and Ezekiel 48.
http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php/224003-Satan’s-being-cast-out-of-Heaven-is-it-a-future-event

 

[HLGStrider]

This discussion has nothing to do with the Lord of the Rings and is therefore off topic. If you guys want to continue the debate you can take it to private messages.