The last thread for the culture of Khamul (please come in)

Olorgando said:

I have posted with icy(!) calm above - not that that is such a good thing.

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What makes you so angry? What is normal as you were trying to execute logic, and that this logic was based on something uncertain and that I called this explanation illogical?

Squint-eyed Southerner said:

Yeah, well, all I'll say is, "calm" isn't the word I'd apply to this thread.

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*sigh* you do not know the PM posts, especially the later ones ...

That was a general observation, not directed specifically at any one person.

norrinradd said:

What makes you so angry? What is normal as you were trying to execute logic, and that this logic was based on something uncertain and that I called this explanation illogical?

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Because you refuse to think. Or at least look up the term "plausible" in a dictionary. My explanation was not illogical, it was, as I stated repeatedly. implausible. Before you understand the term "(im)plausible" you can just go to a very hot place.

Olorgando said:

Because you refuse to think. Or at least look up the term "plausible" in a dictionary. My explanation was not illogical, it was, as I stated repeatedly. implausible. Before you understand the term "(im)plausible" you can just go to a very hot place.

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I had respect for you from the very beginning, especially when we were talking, but you did not have for me afterward. The sentences and words you used against me were ugly you know, it did not suit a good Tolkien fan and forumer like you.

I looked up at many meanings of the term "plausible". You said first: "It is hypothetically conceivable from this that Khamul was not in origin an Easterling, but was sent east by Sauron... But hypothetically, as I stated above, this might be a misunderstanding of those in the west." We have not been able to extract it from articles or chapters in JRRT's work. These are not plausible hypotheses. I just wanted to explain these parts, otherwise, the other explanations, of yours, are very reasonable.

I do believe, Olorgando, that you have literally just restated the point I have been making from the get-go; that no one is forcing you to continue this conversation. Thank you kindly for making my case for me, not that it does a whole lot to lend credence to your grand declaration about superior intelligence. Oh, and for the record, if we are whipping out our proverbial IQ "equipment", I'd throw out that I do have an open invitation to Mensa which I've repeatedly declined. I rather fail to see the intelligence in paying to belong to a club of smart people. It doesn't seem financially prudent. To put it mildly, the likes of you and your claims of superiority hardly give me pause to question my sense of self respect and self worth.

Southerner, my dear, I remain perfectly calm. If you think this is getting hot headed, you should have seen the days of Barliman Butterbur versus Mrs. Maggott. Now that was a battleground one didn't want to get in the middle of! 😏

Look, I'm not going to call anyone out but this is getting a little more intense than it has to. As I've said before, TTF is a forum for hardcore discussion and debate regarding Tolkien's works whether it be Balrogs having wings or the identities of the Nazgul. While I know we're all adults here, please don't make me shut this thread down and put anyone in timeout, it shouldn't be necessary.
If this discussion is over to you than just ignore it and let the OP ask their questions, they're not hurting anyone by wondering. We all came here because we love Tolkien. This site is meant to be ALL inclusive regardless of language spoken, and the level of knowledge that any one user may or may not have regarding Tolkien's works. As someone much wiser than me said once, this isn't just a site, it's a refuge for all the Tolkien fans and nerds. Keep up the debate, lose the insults and discuss on.

norrinradd said:

… I looked up at many meanings of the term "plausible". You said first: "It is hypothetically conceivable from this that Khamul was not in origin an Easterling, but was sent east by Sauron... But hypothetically, as I stated above, this might be a misunderstanding of those in the west." ...

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Unless my memory has gone totally bad, I posted exactly the same thing ...

norrinradd said:

We have not been able to extract it from articles or chapters in JRRT's work. These are not plausible hypotheses. I just wanted to explain these parts, otherwise, the other explanations, of yours, are very reasonable.

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"We have not been able to extract it from articles or chapters in JRRT's work." is precisely the reason why this is a hypothesis. In JRRT's work details about the Nazgûl are a huge gap, so your insistence (as I see it) about being able to extract anything about this is besides the point. There is simply nothing there. That is why it is possible to hypothesize in this way.

Firawyn said:

... To put it mildly, the likes of you and your claims of superiority hardly give me pause to question my sense of self respect and self worth. ...

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As it should, should I have ever made any such claim, But this statement of yours about "superiority" does make me question your ability to read properly, as I never made any such claim. I was quite prepared to take a hit on my SAT etc. brag, though at 99 percentile I thought wasn't taking that big a risk. Stupid of me, perhaps, on a JRRT forum. But as to your statement above about my supposed "claims of superiority" puzzles me sorely, as I can find no reason for it, it does not make my respect for your open invitation to Mensa increase, exactly. Nor decrease, either. There may have been a (serious) shift in what words or statements mean in the 44 years since I last was in the US, and if your misconception is an example, it has been a bad shift. I have read comments about my posts all to often (erm … not nearly always) since going online in 2013 that makes me speculate that such a shift may have taken place, because the comments were just totally wide of anything I had actually posted. Something I am seriously not amused about ...

Erestor Arcamen said:

... put anyone in timeout, it shouldn't be necessary. ...

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If you think it necessary, EA, do so. There are things about which I will not remain silent which may not be compatible with TTF. Never mind the other 99% which I avoid.

Olorgando said:

Unless my memory has gone totally bad, I posted exactly the same thing ...

"We have not been able to extract it from articles or chapters in JRRT's work." is precisely the reason why this is a hypothesis. In JRRT's work details about the Nazgûl are a huge gap, so your insistence (as I see it) about being able to extract anything about this is besides the point. There is simply nothing there. That is why it is possible to hypothesize in this way.

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I have seen and stated only that the hypotheses you presented, in DM and about "was sent East by Sauron", less likely to come to the conclusion. That's all, not stubbornness. It is also possible that what you said about the rejected version (the epithets), I am not saying anything about those hypotheses, Cool!

The only thing I tried to understand is that you haven't answered me on this issue yet and I still want to ask to get your opinion: Christopher Tolkien also stated 2 asterisks information with numbers of pages that in last pages of UT (chapter of INDEX); are; “the Black Easterling, see below: Khamul” and the other one is “Khamul:... EPITHETS: Shadow of the East, the Black Easterling”. In the INDEX part of UT; Christopher Tolkien stated clearly that Khamul's epithets are BE and SE. In addition, Christopher Tolkien gave the following information about the introduction to the chapter of Index: “Asterisks are used to indicate names that have not been published in my father’s works. The brief defining statements are not restricted to matters actually mentioned in the book; and occasionally I have added notes on the meaning of hirherto untranslated names.” While there is so little information about Nazguls; How do you think we should interpret the nicknames that Christopher Tolkien clearly stated in the chapter of INDEX?