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The Never Asked Question

Originally posted by Luthiniliel
how a star is born out of gas and flames
I believe that the cosmology of Arda explains the astronomical phenomena as actions from the Valar themselves. The Sun and the stars are not mythological figures (as for example in existing mythologies), but products of Varda, Yavanna etc. Thus we can reject any possibility of astronomical events in the Void. The Void is not the Space as regarded nowadays. Ilmen (the upper airs of Arda) is the most accurate correspondence to Space. So, I stick to the absolute emptiness of the Void. However nowhere is stated anything about it (e.g. any other worlds existing, what did the Valar who stayed with Iluvatar do) and this is another mystery of Tolkien’s world.
 
Originally posted by Walter
I imagine Tolkien's Void pretty much as I imagine Nirwana - un-imaginable....
Originally posted by gate7ole
I stick to the absolute emptiness of the Void.
Originally posted by gate7ole
......any other worlds existing
......Yeees! A mystery, isn't it!
Now, let's see....
1/ NIRVANA - the state of spiritual existance only. If our "friend" Melkor was not "bad" at the beginning but became such AFTER being out in the Void = in the realms of the Nirvana spaces, then wasn't the only thing he could se there perfection of the soul and mind?
Then, his music must not have been the result of this perfection! It just cannot be!
2/ absolute emptiness - then if there was NOTHING there, what could have caused his tune
3/ another existing world - wat was it like....Can you imagine? Or is there any comment by any of the two Tolkien on the matter? I have read sth. ..... somewhere...... that Tolkien liked to contemplate over "other existing worlds" and that he wrote LOTR (if I'm not mistaken) as a travel in time, while a friend of his ... that Lews - wrote about "travel in space"... I still have to find more information on that.....though don't know exactly where to look for it...

Anyway, back to the topic, Melkor's music , IMHO, is felt to have been provoked by sth. he experienced in the Void. I'm looking for a "straw" of evidence that the feeling one gets while reading those particular lines has its origins.
 
Originally posted by Lhunithiliel
2/ absolute emptiness - then if there was NOTHING there, what could have caused his tune
The tune was not caused by sth outside but by sth inside Melkor. Most times the most terrible thoughts come from within ourselves. As I said before, the lack of Light twisted Melkor's soul. There is where I place the change of Melkor.

The time-travel. You can find it in HOME V, and it is titled The Lost Road. Fascinating start but sadly stops just after the "landing" on Numenor. But I understood it is not as another existing world, but as the same world in a parallel future where Elves and Valar are forgotten and have become a myth

Absolutely. We agree. He expririenced sth. But while you want to associate it with an outer experience, I prefer the inner. You seek for the literal, I for the spiritual. It probably means the same and our difference is non-trivial and has to do each one's respective.
 
What can I say....... I often wonder : if you don't perceive something, does it then exist? I believe it does and as it is there it is this material thing that causes perception, thoughts resp. ....
On the other hand, I have heard about some theories stating that it is our mind that "understands" a combination and a structure built of molecules as an "object", which means that there is actually nothing materially existing around us and only our mind feeds us with its own perceptions...
Can we call the first theory "external" and the second "inner/spiritual", gate7ole?
 
What is the fate of the Elves? In Lost Tales I Tolkien states the fate of the Elves
the Eldar dwell till the Great End unless they be slain or waste in grief
I know that (unexact quote) 'After the Great End choirs of Men and Ainu shall sing, but the fate of the elves is not known' Do they just cease to exist? Feel quite free to slap me if this is an old old question
 

Elenaelin, I advise you to join the Discussion thread of our guild:
Sil:Ainulindale
It is a bit long, but very interesting, and the subject you are referring is being discussed too.
 
This is an interesting reference to the first trip around the whole planet! Can someone remind when the actual event took place in our world?

...... Well, practically, I don't have a specific question..... I wish I could learn what the others think on this piece of information.....
I am so interested in it, because there are lots of facts in Tolkien world that can be compared to similar in other mythologies... but a few have their origin from the "real" world-history events, like this one.
 
Originally posted by Lhunithiliel
This is an interesting reference to the first trip around the whole planet! Can someone remind when the actual event took place in our world?
IIRC this was begun 1519 by Fernão de Magalhães and is usually ascribed to him, although he could never finish it because he was killed at the Philippines (yeah even back then tourists were in danger over there). The journey began with five ships and more than 240 sailors, only 18 of which finished the trip (on only one ship, the Victoria, under the command of Juan Sebastián Elcano) and returned to Spain 1522.

Magalhães didn't sail round Cape Hoorn but discovered the "Strait of Magellan". Kap Hoorn wasn't rounded until some 100 years later.

The first solo circumnavigation was done by Joshua Slocum from 1895-1898 on his tiny sloop "Spray" (his biographic novel "Sailing Alone Around the World" is highly recommendable for everyone interested in sailing).

Yo-ho-ho and a buttle of Rum... und dann hold Dich der Klabautermann...
 
Thank you, Walter, for saving me from my laziness!
Interesting information!
Yo-ho-ho and a buttle of Rum... und dann hold Dich der Klabautermann
Well, the first part is OK...what about the second? I was never good at German language!
 
I guess I was rather supporting your laziness, Lhun...

"...und dann holt Dich der Klabautermann..."

Klabautermann, hmmm hard to translate, my dictionary says: "ship's kobold" but that's not quite it, I'd rather call it the "incarnation" or "personification" of death in the naval language....

so the part of the sentences could be translated to: "...and then Death will get you..."
 
Is this thread limited to FACTUAL questions or are more subjective questions permitted?

For instance, I wondered how many people felt as I did after reading the Silmarillion that the Valar bore quite a bit of the responsiblity for the depredations of Morgoth? After all, it has been quite a while since I read The Silmarillion, but I distinctly remember feeling after I read it that while Morgoth was stamping about the place ruining elves etc., the Valar were busy walling themselves in someplace nice (like the hobbits) so they wouldn't have to look at the damage!

Furthermore, when Morgoth rose again after they defeated him, it was THEIR fault that he was running loose again and it was only after the poor elves and men did their darndest - and failed - that the Valar got their act together and "rescued" what they had allowed to fall into danger in the first place! I read the book MANY years ago, but I still remember how unfair I thought it was that the Valar had allowed all this mayhem to take place when they should have shut Morgoth down from the get-go! Oh well, I was young then and maybe when I read it again with 61 years of life experience behind me, I'll feel differently!

However, if this thread is limited to more objective (rather than subjective) topics, I withdraw my question until a suitable thread comes along!
 
Well, as for your "subjective" question I'd say that there are several threads discussing on this matter and the opinion vary from "Yes, the Valar were too careless and selfish..." to "No, the Valar just did their best to...".
But this thread was opened to ask questions on facts.... I guess.

Here is my new one:
It is well known that Sauron held the One Ring AND the NINE that controlled the Nazgul.
So, when the One was destroyed in the fires of Orodruin, the Nazgul perished too (very spactacularly, I'd say ).
Does it mean that the NINE also disapeared materially........
 
Certainly ALL the Rings were affected by the destruction of the one. Even the Three "failed" though they had never been corrupted by Sauron and were, in fact, not materially destroyed as was described in the Grey Havens chapter at the end of ROTK.

I would imagine that EVERY Ring of Power wrought in conjunction with the enemy either was destroyed or simply "failed" (like the Dwarf Rings perhaps?) with the destruction of the One. Indeed, in the case of the remaining Nazgul, it was probably the destruction of their RINGS that was visible to the eye since they had no material bodies.

However, I don't know if Tolkien defined this in any of his writings. Perhaps a more well read Guildsman will have the definitive answer.
 
I do not know of any mention by Tolkien of the fate of the rings, but have always assumed they became simple rings; with no power. If these rings were not fully emptied of their evil tendencies, could they still lead their finders to evil? I sense another rpg coming. . .
 
Why do you believe (or was that just an idea?) that the rings weren't fully emptied of their evil tendencies....?
I'd really like to know that and enlarge my knollege, oh, Expert Tolkienologist!!!
 
I would side with the dissapearing materially thought. Not only were the Nine subject to the Ring, but in a sense they were sauron's creatures, which, after the battle, wandered aimlessly to die (there's a quote about that somewhere, sorry i am bookless at the current moment!)
 
I think the remaining eight "went down in flames" at the destruction of the Ring while the orcs, trolls and other creatures of Sauron in the battle before the Black Gate lost all will to not only fight, but live as well - although Tolkien does not say (at least in LOTR) if ALL the orcs and trolls were stricken in the same way.

I have always wondered if some orcs survived and continued to live after Sauron's fall, if they might have "evolved" upward into sort of man-like beings capable of living fairly ordinary lives. After all, they weren't "created" by Morgoth, only corrupted by him. It may be that those who were furthest away from Sauron's direct influence might have lived on and without that constant pressure of evil, in due course of time become something else instead.

Somehow I always felt sorry for the orcs who were what they were through no fault of their own unlike others who CHOSE their path. I believe that is what Gandalf meant when he said that he felt sorry "even for his slaves".
 
I have a few questions ....again ( )

1/
From the ROTK:
So, my question is: What to think of the Road and the Door - Were they made BEFORE the breaking of the oath ? - then For what purpose? .... or.... Were they made AFTER the breaking of the oath? ...then WHO made them? (for the purpose could be = warning)

2/
From the ROTK:
So:
1) What "business" had the Dead with the Stone, which is obviously one of the Palantiri, brought from Numenor.
2) How, do you think, did Isildur manage to bring the enourmous Palantir to Erech? Looking at the maps and reading about the place... I just can't figure out how he could!
3) Why Erech?

3/
Maybe I shall have to wait for Walter to return. He might have some opinion on the next question as he comes from Germany.... But perhaps some of you, too could answer. I'll be most interested to learn your opinion on this:
I have noticed that on several occasions, the Professor expressed quantities using the "German way" of saying the numbers and not the English one.
For example:
five and fifty hundreds = German: "funf und funfzig" (don't laugh at my Deutch! ) still it is NOT the English " fifty five hundred"
a hundred leagues and two ...
There are several other examples, but I just can't find them now.
Your comments?

4/
From ROTK:
Could someone, please, say what war exactly did Legolas mean?
As far as I remember, Lothlorien was not at war at that point. Yes, there were fell creatures that the Elven warriors chased out of the wood, but a WAR????

*****

Well, I will be very much obliged if some of you wish to comment on these questions.
 
I can answer number four all but off the top of my head. In the Tale of the Years, for March 11, 3019 TA

First assault on Lorien

The second assault came on March 15, and a third on March 22, all from Dol Guldur. Part of the larger War of the Ring that we barely hear about in the text proper of LOTR.
 
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