I believe that the cosmology of Arda explains the astronomical phenomena as actions from the Valar themselves. The Sun and the stars are not mythological figures (as for example in existing mythologies), but products of Varda, Yavanna etc. Thus we can reject any possibility of astronomical events in the Void. The Void is not the Space as regarded nowadays. Ilmen (the upper airs of Arda) is the most accurate correspondence to Space. So, I stick to the absolute emptiness of the Void. However nowhere is stated anything about it (e.g. any other worlds existing, what did the Valar who stayed with Iluvatar do) and this is another mystery of Tolkien’s world.Originally posted by Luthiniliel
how a star is born out of gas and flames
Originally posted by Walter
I imagine Tolkien's Void pretty much as I imagine Nirwana - un-imaginable....
Originally posted by gate7ole
I stick to the absolute emptiness of the Void.
......Yeees! A mystery, isn't it!Originally posted by gate7ole
......any other worlds existing
The tune was not caused by sth outside but by sth inside Melkor. Most times the most terrible thoughts come from within ourselves. As I said before, the lack of Light twisted Melkor's soul. There is where I place the change of Melkor.Originally posted by Lhunithiliel
2/ absolute emptiness - then if there was NOTHING there, what could have caused his tune
The time-travel. You can find it in HOME V, and it is titled The Lost Road. Fascinating start but sadly stops just after the "landing" on Numenor. But I understood it is not as another existing world, but as the same world in a parallel future where Elves and Valar are forgotten and have become a mythOriginally posted by Lhunithiliel
I have read sth. ..... somewhere...... that Tolkien liked to contemplate over "other existing worlds" and that he wrote LOTR (if I'm not mistaken) as a travel in time, while a friend of his ... that Lews - wrote about "travel in space"... I still have to find more information on that.....though don't know exactly where to look for it...
Absolutely. We agree. He expririenced sth. But while you want to associate it with an outer experience, I prefer the inner. You seek for the literal, I for the spiritual. It probably means the same and our difference is non-trivial and has to do each one's respective.Originally posted by Lhunithiliel
Anyway, back to the topic, Melkor's music , IMHO, is felt to have been provoked by sth. he experienced in the Void. I'm looking for a "straw" of evidence that the feeling one gets while reading those particular lines has its origins. [/B]
What can I say....... I often wonder : if you don't perceive something, does it then exist? I believe it does and as it is there it is this material thing that causes perception, thoughts resp. ....Originally posted by gate7ole
Absolutely. We agree. He expririenced sth. But while you want to associate it with an outer experience, I prefer the inner. You seek for the literal, I for the spiritual. It probably means the same and our difference is non-trivial and has to do each one's respective.
I know that (unexact quote) 'After the Great End choirs of Men and Ainu shall sing, but the fate of the elves is not known' Do they justthe Eldar dwell till the Great End unless they be slain or waste in grief
Originally posted by Elenaelin
What is the fate of the Elves? In Lost Tales I Tolkien states the fate of the Elves I know that (unexact quote) 'After the Great End choirs of Men and Ainu shall sing, but the fate of the elves is not known' Do they justcease to exist? Feel quite free to slap me if this is an old old question
This is an interesting reference to the first trip around the whole planet! Can someone remind when the actual event took place in our world?Akallabeth, Silmarillion
And those that sailed far came only to the new lands, and found them like to the old lands, and subject to death. And those that sailed furthest set but a girdle about the Earth and returned weary at last to the place of their beginning; and they said: 'All roads are now bent.'
IIRC this was begun 1519 by Fernão de Magalhães and is usually ascribed to him, although he could never finish it because he was killed at the Philippines (yeah even back then tourists were in danger over there). The journey began with five ships and more than 240 sailors, only 18 of which finished the trip (on only one ship, the Victoria, under the command of Juan Sebastián Elcano) and returned to Spain 1522.Originally posted by Lhunithiliel
This is an interesting reference to the first trip around the whole planet! Can someone remind when the actual event took place in our world?
Well, the first part is OK...what about the second? I was never good at German language!Yo-ho-ho and a buttle of Rum... und dann hold Dich der Klabautermann
The light was still grey as they rode, for the sun had not yet climbed over the black ridges of the Haunted Mountain before them. A dread fell on them, even as they passed between the lines of ancient stones and so came to the Dimholt. There under the gloom of black trees that not even Legolas could long endure they found a hollow place opening at the mountain’s root, and right in their path stood a single mighty stone like a finger of doom.
And so they came at last deep into the glen; and there stood a sheer wall of rock, and in the wall the Dark Door gaped before them like the mouth of night. Signs and figures were carved above its wide arch too dim to read, and fear flowed from it like a grey vapour.
So, my question is: What to think of the Road and the Door - Were they made BEFORE the breaking of the oath ? - then For what purpose? .... or.... Were they made AFTER the breaking of the oath? ...then WHO made them? (for the purpose could be = warning).....between which there faced the riders, the grim black wall of the Dwimorberg, the Haunted Mountain rising out of steep slopes of sombre pines. Dividing the upland into two there marched a double line of unshaped standing stones that dwindled into the dusk and vanished in the trees. Those who dared to follow that road came soon to the black Dimholt under Dwimorberg, and the menace of the pillar of stone, and the yawning shadow of the forbidden door.
Such was the dark Dunharrow, the work of long-forgotten men. Their name was lost and no song or legend remembered it. For what purpose they had made this place, as a town or secret temple or a tomb of kings, none could say. Here they laboured in the Dark Years, before ever a ship came to the western shores, or Gondor of the Dúnedain was built; and now they had vanished, and only the old Púkel-men were left, still sitting at the turnings of the road.
So:Long had the terror of the Dead lain upon that hill and upon the empty fields about it. For upon the top stood a black stone, round as a great globe, the height of a man, though its half was buried in the ground. Unearthly it looked, as though it had fallen from the sky, as some believed; but those who remembered still the lore of Westernesse told that it had been brought out of the ruin of Númenor and there set by Isildur at his landing. None of the people of the valley dared to approach it, nor would they dwell near; for they said that it was a trysting-place of the Shadow-men, and there they would gather in times of fear, thronging round the Stone and whispering.
Could someone, please, say what war exactly did Legolas mean?Legolas stood before the gate and turned his bright eyes away north and east, and his fair face was troubled. ‘I do not think that any would come,’ he answered. ‘They have no need to ride to war; war already marches on their own lands.’
First assault on Lorien
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