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The Never Asked Question

Ok, our questions about the origins of elves were almost answered. But what about their situation at the beginning of the Fourth Age and afterwards? From the subdivisions of Elves, the great majority of the Noldor must have returned to Aman. So, it leaves us with the Sindar and the other Avari (some Silvan for example). But I think they are too few. Only Thranduil's grey elves and the elves of Lothlorien. Oh, I forgot Cirdan and his folk. Others I don't remember. Where are the other Avari (those that refused the Great Journey), where are the green elves of Ossiriant, the people of Thingol. Have they all perished? Or did they take the Straight Road? The world without elves seems less wise and yet less joyfull
 
I posted this question in The Silmarillion forum but it wasn't answered adequately.So I would like my fellow Tolkienologists to ponder about it;)
It is more a series of minor questions than one great question.
Alright.What do you think,where did the ship that bore the Ring-bearers go? To Eressea or Valinor? I always wondered about that. What about Gimli and Legolas? Were these "special" mortals allowed only to Eressea or to Valinor also?
After the War of Wrath,the Ban of the Valar was lifted from the Noldorin elves,yet it remained upon Galadriel because she refused to return to Aman - I find this extremely illogical;why keep the Ban just because she had not the desire to return?Did the Valar forbid the free choice of the Firstborn?Were they just a bit hypocritical and arrogant?

I doubt these questions have a proper answer in any of Tolkien's works. Any theory welcome.
 
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For your questions ithrynluin, I can only speculate.
First the ship that bore the Ring-bearers could not have stopped in Tol Eressea. There were others too on that boat (like Gandalf or Elrond) that would probably want to go to Valinor. So the question is whether they stopped for a while at Tol Eressea and leave the Ring-Bearers (and mortals) there. From the little we know about Aman, there was no ban for those living to Tol Eressea. At the Lonely Island lived only some Teleri for love of the seas and Noldor who after the flight of their ancestors they didn't want to stay at Tirion or Formenos any more. But they could return to Valinor if this was their desire. Maybe, this is the rule for the Ring bearers and Gimli. As for Legolas he was not mortal, so there can be no restriction to him.
The ban on Galadriel is a different issue and we are said some things in UT. Even Christopher Tolkien was a bit confused about it, since there are some contradictions in his father's work. The most probable is that Galadriel (being the only elf left in ME who had seen the light of the Trees), didn't return to Aman after the Last Alliance, because of her pride (or of her love to Celeborn). The ban may not literary mean that the Valar forbade her to return, but that SHE forbade herself to do so.

That's all my opinion and probably others will come with proof.
 
I posted this question in The Silmarillion forum but it wasn't answered adequately

Would you kindly NOT forget the name of this thread?
I specifically asked to check if the questions have or haven't been asked before, even not ONLY in TTF!
Let's save some space as well as the time of the Masters.

Both the last questions have been already discussed. You just have to look for where in this forum or/and in other Tolkien-related sites you can find the answers.:confused: :)

I am looking forward to new NEVER ASKED questions.
Let's make the Masters sweat!:D
 
I do not think this has been asked before, but if someone has seen it, please let me know. How was Luthien able to enchant Melkor but fainted before Sauron? When Sauron comes out of his fortress in the shape of a werewolf, Luthien faints, after managing to make Sauron somewhat sleepy, allowing Huan to start his fight. Before Melkor, Luthien is revealed as herself, but still manages to postpone her capture enough to sing her song, felling every being in the chamber, including Melkor.

Now Sauron knew well, as did all in that land, the fate that was decreed for the hound of Valinor, and it came into his thought that he himself would accomplish it. Therefore he took upon himself the form of a werewolf, and made himself the mightiest that had yet walked the world; and he came forth to win the passage of the bridge.....
So great was the horror of his approach that Huan leaped aside. Then Sauron sprang upon Lúthien; and she swooned before the menace of the fell spirit in his eyes and the foul vapour of his breath. But even as he came, falling she cast a fold of her dark cloak before his eyes; and he stumbled, for a fleeting drowsiness came upon him.
Then Morgoth recalled the doom of Huan, and he chose one from among the whelps of the race of Draugluin; and he fed him with his own hand upon living flesh, and put his power upon him.k Shere the fire and anguish of hell entered into him, and he became filled with a devouring spirit, tormented, terrible, and strong. Carcharoth, the Red Mar, he is named in the tales of those days, and Anfauglir, the Jaws of Thirst. . . . . when they [Beren and Luthien] approached he [Carcharoth] denied them entry, and bade them stand; and he drew near with menace, scenting somehting strange in th air about them. But suddenly some power, descended fro of old from dvince race, possessed Luthien, and casting back herfoul raiment she stood orth, small before the might of Carcharoth, but radiant and terrible. Lifting up her hand she commanded him to sleep, saing: 'O woe-begotten spirit, fall now into the dark oblivion, and forget for a while the dreadful doom of life.' And Carcharoth was felled, as though lightning had smitten him. . . . For they came to the seatof Moroth in his nethermot hall, that was upheld by horror, lit by fire, and filled with weapons of death and torment. THere Beren slunk in wolf's form beneath his throne; but Luthien was stripped of her discguise by the will of Morgoth, and he bent his gaze upon her. SHe was not daunted by his eyes; and named her own name, and ffered her service to sing before him, after the maner of a minstrel. THen Morgoth looking pon her beauty conceived in his thought an evil lust, and a design more dark than any that had yet come into his heart since he fled from Valinor. Thus he ws hbeguiled byu his own malice, for he watchd her, leaving her free or a while, and taking secret pleasure in his thougt. THen sddenly she eluded his sight, nd out of the shadows began a song of such surpassing loveliness, and of such blinding power, that he listend perforce. . . . Then Luthien catching up her winged robe sprang into the air, and her voice came dropping down like rain into pools, profound and dark. She cast her cloak before his eyes, and set upon him a dream, dark as the Outer Void where once he walked alone. Suddenly he fell as a hill sliding in avalanche and hurled like thunder from his throne lay prone upon the doors of hell.
 
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Now Sauron knew well, as did all in that land, the fate that was decreed for the hound of Valinor, and it came into his thought that he himself would accomplish it. Therefore he took upon himself the form of a werewolf, and made himself the mightiest that had yet walked the world; and he came forth to win the passage of the bridge.....
So great was the horror of his approach that Huan leaped aside. Then Sauron sprang upon Lúthien; and she swooned before the menace of the fell spirit in his eyes and the foul vapour of his breath. But even as he came, falling she cast a fold of her dark cloak before his eyes; and he stumbled, for a fleeting drowsiness came upon him.

Does this answer the question?
IMO, after all Sauron - the MIGHTIEST servant of Melkor, the one who had learned all the evil from his master and had developed it in his own way, the one that even the legendary Huan feared, could stand against the elven magic and defeat it.

My new question is about the Palantiri

We all know what they are and what they were used for. I was however always astonished by a small detail about the Palantir in Osgilliath. This stone was the one that had connection with all the other 6 stones.
Now, from the point of view of our PRESENT days, doesn't the configuration of the 7 stones and their function STIKINGLY resemble the configuration of a modern-technology-possible video conference?

Taking into consideration the years when Tolkien lived and wrote, how did he ever come to this idea?
 
It is not actually a question, it is more of a techonogical observation, and a good one indeed.
You mean that Tolkien acted like a Jules Vern. Tolkien preceeds the technology of video conference by many decades. It is not likely that he had read any futuristic article on the subject, not being himself a fan of technology. I think he just thought of an impressive way for Dunedain to communicate. And it also solved later plot difficulties.
The most interesting aspect of the palantiri is, in my opinion, their ability to show things of the past and the future. We know they were made by Feanor and although he was a great craftsman, I don't think he had such knowledge to make these stones foresee. Maybe at first the palantiri could be used only for communications and as telescopes and then the Valar gave them more extraordinary capabilities. Or even the stone of Elostirion was the link between the other stones and Valinor from which all the prophecies where downloaded ;)
 
Another interesting link with the Palantiri to modern times is the Television.

They both mean Far seeing.

Pretty cool considering televisions were not invented when Tolkien thought up the Palantiri.
 
I think Tolkien was working off a wish many people had. At his time, it was possible to transmit sound from one place to another, but it was impossible to transmit images. This could have been the inspiration Tolkien needed.
 
Originally posted by Grond
I continue to look for definitive dates linking the Awakening and the Finding by Orome. :)

BTW, the quote that Grond gave is repated word for word in the Sil, so most people here should have known it.
 
Originally posted by ithrynluin
I posted this question in The Silmarillion forum but it wasn't answered adequately.So I would like my fellow Tolkienologists to ponder about it;)
It is more a series of minor questions than one great question.
Alright.What do you think,where did the ship that bore the Ring-bearers go? To Eressea or Valinor? I always wondered about that. What about Gimli and Legolas? Were these "special" mortals allowed only to Eressea or to Valinor also?
After the War of Wrath,the Ban of the Valar was lifted from the Noldorin elves,yet it remained upon Galadriel because she refused to return to Aman - I find this extremely illogical;why keep the Ban just because she had not the desire to return?Did the Valar forbid the free choice of the Firstborn?Were they just a bit hypocritical and arrogant?

Just for the record: The ring bearers, at least, went to Tol Eressea. I don't think there is a specific mention on Gimli's destination anywhere.
Galadriel didn't return because of pride -- she didn't want to admit she was wrong. Also, she was still able to have her kingdom in ME and wasn't yet weary of that world.
 
Originally posted by Lhunithiliel
We all know what they are and what they were used for. I was however always astonished by a small detail about the Palantir in Osgilliath. This stone was the one that had connection with all the other 6 stones.
You know this topic has been puzzling me too for a few days now (actually it's because I just completed an essay about the Palantíri over at the TolkienWiki).

Usually only the surveyors of two stones (which were in accord) could communicate with each other, however Foster states in the CompleteGuide the same as you do:
The chief Palantír he (Elendil) placed in the Dome of Stars in Osgiliath; this stone alone could view all the others at one time.

At the moment I cannot clearly decide what the source for this statement is. Maybe it derives from either one of those statements:
Each Palantír replied to each, but all those in Gondor were ever open to the view of Osgiliath.
TTT - The Palantír
...only the surveyor using the Master Stone of Osgiliath could "eavesdrop."
UT - The Palantíri
In HoMe VII (The Palantír) we find:
But the chief and master .... [?of (the) stones] was at Osgiliath before it was ruined.
Foster usually is rather "laid back" in his statements and at the time he wrote his Guide he had no access to the HoME or the UT. But IMO none of the quotes I found so far fully justifies this statement, I wonder if I have been looking in the right places...

----
PS: Lhunithiliel finding - and giving - quotes very fast is no problem if you have the texts accessible electronically. One can be rather ignorant - like myself - and still appear pretty "full of knowledge" with the right tools...
 
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Here goes some research I have done.
The following quotes (Maedhros would be proud of me!) show how the Palantir worked :

> as a monitor
> as a video camera
> as a video-recorder…

From LOTR:
--------------------------------
Pippin ………. drew his cloak aside and gazed at it. The air seemed still and tense about him. At first the globe was dark, black as jet, with the moonlight gleaming on its surface. Then there came a faint glow and stir in the heart of it, and it held his eyes, so that now he could not look away. Soon all the inside seemed on fire; the ball was spinning, or the lights within were revolving. Suddenly the lights went out. He gave a gasp and struggled; but he remained bent, clasping the ball with both hands. Closer and closer he bent, and then became rigid; his lips moved soundlessly for a while. Then with a strangled cry he fell back and lay still….

In a low hesitating voice Pippin began again, and slowly his words grew clearer and stronger. 'I saw a dark sky, and tall battlements,' he said. 'And tiny stars. It seemed very far away and long ago, yet hard and clear. Then the stars went in and out-they were cut off by things with wings. Very big, I think, really; but in the glass they looked like bats wheeling round the tower. I thought there were nine of them. One began to fly straight towards me, getting bigger and bigger. It had a horrible – no, no! I can't say.
------------------------------------

From the RotK:
------------------------------------
Then suddenly Denethor laughed. He stood up tall and proud again, and stepping swiftly back to the table he lifted from it the pillow on which his head had lain. Then coming to the doorway he drew aside the covering, and lo! he had between his hands a palantír. And as he held it up, it seemed to those that looked on that the globe began to glow with an inner flame, so that the lean face of the Lord was lit as with a red fire, and it seemed cut out of hard stone, sharp with black shadows, noble, proud, and terrible. His eyes glittered….

‘Pride and despair!’ he cried. ‘Didst thou think that the eyes of the White Tower were blind? Nay, I have seen more than thou knowest, Grey Fool. For thy hope is but ignorance…
Then Denethor leaped upon the table, and standing there wreathed in fire and smoke he took up the staff of his stewardship that lay at his feet and broke it on his knee. Casting the pieces into the blaze he bowed and laid himself on the table, clasping the palantír with both hands upon his breast. And it was said that ever after, if any man looked in that Stone, unless he had a great strength of will to turn it to other purpose, he saw only two aged hands withering in flame.
----------------------------------
I will continue the research.
How about you?:p
 
And here is some more:

From the UT – “Palantiri”

MUCH is said there, but referring to my question, here are some small extracts :
(the rest of the information is very essential too, but it of course should not be quoted here, as the text would be very long)

> They were perfect spheres, appearing when at rest to be made of solid glass or crystal deep black in hue..
> They were very heavy but per-fectly smooth, and would suffer no damage if by accident or malice they were unseated and rolled off their tables
>Though without any external markings of any kind they had permanent poles, and were originally so placed in their sites that they stood "upright:" their diameters from pole to pole pointed to the earth's centre, but the permanent nether pole must then be at the bottom. The faces along the circumference in this po-sition were the viewing faces, receiving the visions from the out-side, but transmitting them to the eye of a "surveyor" upon the far side…. But the minor Stones, those of Orthanc, Ithil, and Anor, and probably Annúminas, had also fixed orientation in their original situa-tion, so that (for example) their west face would only look west and turned in other directions was blank.
> Only the surveyor using the Master Stone of Osgiliath could "eavesdrop." While two of the other Stones were in re-sponse, the third would find them both blank.
> Alone the palantíri could only "see:" they did not transmit sound. Ungoverned by a directing mind they were wayward, and their "visions" were (apparently at least) haphazard
>The vision of the palantíri was not "blinded" or "occluded" by physical obstacles, but only by darkness
> A viewer could by his will cause the vision of the Stone to concentrate on some point, on or near its direct line

This, together with all the other explanations surprise me more and more! These things are ahead not only of the time of their creator but also of our modern times....
 
OK, I have two.

The first one is probably for Grond: can you list all books written by Tolikien (no companions, guides etc) regarding M-E and the elder days. I believe the Sil ends with the First Age, while the Hobbit and LOTR pick it up almost at the end of the Third. There are certain stories here and there in UT, and LOTR Appendices but what will be better to read about Second and Third Ages.

The second is for everybody - the Sil doesn't have much information on who/what Ungoliant was and what hapenned to her. Any other books offer a clue?
 
Originally posted by Walter

PS: Lhunithiliel finding - and giving - quotes very fast is no problem if you have the texts accessible electronically. One can be rather ignorant - like myself - and still appear pretty "full of knowledge" with the right tools...

LOL..sorry Walter, but quoting things from the book does not make someone look full of knowledge...:p
 
Okay... here goes
Written and published in his lifetime by J. R. R. Tolkien
1) The Hobbit
2) The Lord of the Rings
3) The Adventures of Tom Bombadil

Written by J. R. R. T. and edited by C. T. Published posthumously
The Silmarillion

Written by J. R. R. T. with commentary and editing by C. T. Published posthumously
Unfinished Tales
HoMe I - XII

Well, despite Walter's post, I didn't look on the web for the answers.
 
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Originally posted by Confusticated
LOL..sorry Walter, but quoting things from the book does not make someone look full of knowledge...:p
Good thing I didn't insert the "like myself" in that part of the sentence, huh? ;)

----
Grond: but to surf around some in the Wiki, doesn't hurt, now does it?
 
Ok, here’s what I’ve found about Ungoliand:

From the sil we don’t get much info
The Eldar knew not whence she came; but some have said that in ages long before she descended from the darkness that lies about Arda, when Melkor first looked down in envy upon the Kingdom of Manwë, and that in the beginning she was one of those that he corrupted to his service.

There is though some important passage in HOME I:
For here dwelt the primeval spirit Moru whom even the Valar know not whence or when she came, and the folk of Earth have given her many names. Mayhap she was bred of mists and darkness on the confines of the Shadowy Seas, in that utter dark that came between the overthrow of the Lamps and the kindling of the Trees, but more she has always been.

It seems that Ungoliant was at first a spirit (Maia or another natural spirit) which entered Ea afterwards when Melkor started the first war with the other Ainur. She was corrupted by him like other Maia (Balrogs, Sauron). She probably took the form of a spider and lusted for light. She was then bred by of the darkness that existed in the world before the making of the Trees and afterwards she lived by sucking their light.
 

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