The One Ring when 👁️Sauron was in Numenor?Or those Rings really suck

[Radaghast]

That's what a lot of this argument hinges on. I'll just say that in my own head-canon, he left the Ring at home. 😄

This begs the question: if this is the case did he have it in Mordor when Ar-Pharazon confronted him with his army or did A-P let him go home to pack a few things? 🤔

 

[Gothmog]

Interesting reasoning, but personally I'm not quite convinced of it yet.

For example, why would Sauron take off his ring and leave it in Barad-dur? That would only make sense if he was afraid that the Numenorians would take the Ring from him. But first, they didn't know about the Rings of Power, and second, I believe that Sauron was able to make the Ring invisible to others, just as Galadriel, for example, was able to hide Nenya from others, at least from mortals. Furthermore, he should have feared that the Numenorians would plunder and destroy Barad-dur. And finally, he also needed the Ring on Numenor to exert control over the Nine.

That would basically be like me taking a three-week vacation in New Zealand and leaving my smartphone and laptop at home while my door lock is broken.
And I actually would need the smartphone to plan my trip, book tickets and research information more quickly...

So I'd rather think that he had the Ring with him in Numenor, although of course it's a kind of plot hole how the Ring could come back again. As suggested in an older post, perhaps he could have influenced the ocean current in spirit form, so that his former, rotten Annatar-body, to which the Ring was still attached, was washed to Middle-earth. Or his spirit could exert control over lower (sea) beings, like a kind of possession as with the wargs or the wights, that were also controlled by evil spirits...
In any case, it would be plausible that he could wield more power in spirit form than in the Third Age, since the Ring remained on his destroyed body after Numenor's demise and he therefore knew exactly where it was.



Incidentally, I find this statement of Tolkien's particularly interesting, since nowhere else is it said that the Ring is also capable of manipulating the minds of beings who do not themselves wear a (lesser) Ring.
I explain it as Sauron being able to boost his naturally innate abilities just by wearing the Ring.

This would also fit the concept of increasing power through externalization while at the same time risking loss of control.

Morgoth has in principle done something similar by shifting more and more of his own power into his creatures and pseudo-creations...

True that he most likely could make the Ring invisible to others, but as he was going into the heart of his enemies homeland there is always some risk. Why would he fear that the Numenorians would plunder and destroy the Barad-dur? He had surrendered himself as hostage for him and his peoples. It certainly seems that there was no destruction of the Tower. What did he need to exert control of the Nine for? They were busy with the work they already had. We don't even know if they still had their own rings at this point.

Show me where the lock of the Barad-dur is broken.

I am still of the opinion that he did not have the Ring with him in Numenor. Occam's Razor cuts to a simpler way with the Ring safe in a hidden chamber in the Barad-dur where he knew the exact location and could access the part of himself bound within it. The fact that Sauron left the destroyed Numenor, traveled to Mordor, took up his Ring in the Barad-dur and only then set about building a new body for himself only makes sense if he did not have to carry the Ring with him from Numenor.

Tolkien does not say that the Ring was capable of manipulating the minds of beings who do not wear lesser rings, except those who wear it. He said that Sauron had the One Ring (which had much of his native power in it) and could dominate the minds of others. He was a Maia for dominating the minds of the Numenorians he would not need to have his abilities augmented, he would only need to have access to his native power. There was in all probability a psychic link that could only be broken by the forcible removal of the Ring such as happened when Isildur cut it from his hand.

 

[Annatar]

Occam's Razor cuts to a simpler way with the Ring safe in a hidden chamber in the Barad-dur where he knew the exact location and could access the part of himself bound within it.

That seems to be the core of your argument, and I consider it highly speculative and contradictory to Tolkien's letter. Nevertheless, it is of course a plausible theory, only I doubt that Tolkien had such things in his mind.

I think if Sauron had kept the Ring in a secret chamber in Barad-dur and therefore had more or less unproblematic access to its power despite physical distance, that would have been described and explained in any case. Your theory may make sense, but it implies far too many premises that Tolkien never confirmed. Otherwise it would be completely implausible for the average reader that he was so weakened in the Third Age without physical possession of the Ring. If it makes a huge difference whether the Ring is somewhere in the Anduin or in Sauron's secret chamber in Barad-dur, that would definitely have to be mentioned. And besides, this actually contradicts the statements from the letter.

He naturally had the One Ring [...] I do not think one need boggle at this spirit carrying off the One Ring, upon which his power of dominating minds now largely depended.

It really doesn't sound like the Ring was deposited in a secret chamber in Mordor.

Personally, I simply believe that Tolkien had changed his mind again by the time of the letter at the latest.
At first the Ring was left in Barad-dur (or didn't even exist as MrN. mentioned), but Tolkien later changed his mind, and then Annatar had the Ring with him in Numenor, without giving much thought to how the Ring came back.

If he had the same opinion like in the letter from the beginning, one must interpret "took up again his great Ring" in such a way that he activated certain magic abilities of the Ring again. Perhaps those that enabled him to form a new physical shape again and to control the Nazgul more strongly.

I'm not a native English speaker, but there was an interesting and quite funny discussion about this in the comments to the video I linked, too:

- So, let me see if I understand your logic using the phrasal verb "take up." If someone is carrying a sword for a long time but doesn't use it until one day, he uses it, would you say he took up his sword? That is kind of what you are saying about Sauron and the Ring. I can't speak for British English, but in North American English, that would be an improper use of "take up." You can't take up something you already have. In other words, the Ring was there when he got back.

- yes I would use it in that way, because (and this may just be my own interpretation) but to "take up" is to use something in the way it was intended for, or with intent separate from simply having possession of it. Saying "take up your arms" to someone who has weapons means to make ready to use them, right? A distinction between possession and use

- Okay. I see. I guess British English is different from North American English. Take up arms where I come from means to pick them up and carry them with you to use later. We also have take up a new hobby. Take up space in the closet.

- I'm from California so it's not British English lol. So I looked it up and it looks like we're both right and wrong. the phrase can be used both as "begin to hold a position/object" and also "to begin doing something/pursuing something". So it's more of a matter of interpretation of the meaning whether it's to have or to use.

- California?! 😅 My point was that you can't have something with you and take it up, which is what you were saying that Sauron's spirit did with the ring. That seems to be the case with those definitions, but "take up" arms is what I said it was. That meaning has "take" and "up" I think has a feel of readiness. Anyway, the arms are not on the soldiers before that.

This can probably go on forever...
But as I said, I would also interpret it as being about harnessing the power of the Ring again after it was brought back to Mordor from Numenor.

Anyway, I think this was one of the many cases where Tolkien either changed his mind later or where he simply disregarded certain aspects, that perhaps only became relevant later.
So it is up to us which statements we consider canonical and how we interpret it. For me personally, it makes the most sense if he had the Ring with him, but that decision is more like 60% vs 40%. 😉
And of course it also depends on how seriously one takes his letters and later remarks, which can lead to problems in several respects, for example also concerning the origin of the orcs, i.e. whether they rather descend from elves, humans or animals...
Tolkien started to philosophize about this later, which would have led to considerable inconsistencies. Or to the necessity to edit many texts again.
Therefore, in my opinion, it does not make much sense to settle on one particular theory, but must keep several possibilities open at the same time (which can be given different probabilities, but which is partly subjective), analogous to the double-slit experiment in modern physics / quantum mechanics... 😉

When you read the Unfinished Tales, you get used to different parallel versions. And yet, with each different version, Tolkien's mindset becomes clear and follows a certain direction. So, despite different possibilities, it is not completely arbitrary and always follows his philosophy, even if the details vary.
To stay with the comparison with quantum physics: There are different probabilities, but some of them are very high and exist in parallel and have similar consequences, and others are rather very improbable (but are unfortunately often taken up in film adaptations... 😜 )

 

[Gothmog]

That seems to be the core of your argument, and I consider it highly speculative and contradictory to Tolkien's letter. Nevertheless, it is of course a plausible theory, only I doubt that Tolkien had such things in his mind.

I think if Sauron had kept the Ring in a secret chamber in Barad-dur and therefore had more or less unproblematic access to its power despite physical distance, that would have been described and explained in any case. Your theory may make sense, but it implies far too many premises that Tolkien never confirmed. Otherwise it would be completely implausible for the average reader that he was so weakened in the Third Age without physical possession of the Ring. If it makes a huge difference whether the Ring is somewhere in the Anduin or in Sauron's secret chamber in Barad-dur, that would definitely have to be mentioned. And besides, this actually contradicts the statements from the letter.


It really doesn't sound like the Ring was deposited in a secret chamber in Mordor.

Personally, I simply believe that Tolkien had changed his mind again by the time of the letter at the latest.
At first the Ring was left in Barad-dur (or didn't even exist as MrN. mentioned), but Tolkien later changed his mind, and then Annatar had the Ring with him in Numenor, without giving much thought to how the Ring came back.

If he had the same opinion like in the letter from the beginning, one must interpret "took up again his great Ring" in such a way that he activated certain magic abilities of the Ring again. Perhaps those that enabled him to form a new physical shape again and to control the Nazgul more strongly.

I'm not a native English speaker, but there was an interesting and quite funny discussion about this in the comments to the video I linked, too:



This can probably go on forever...
But as I said, I would also interpret it as being about using the power of the Ring again after it was brought back to Mordor from Numenor.

In any case, I think this was one of the many cases where Tolkien either changed his mind later or where he simply disregarded certain aspects.
So it is up to us which statements we consider canonical and how we interpret it. For me personally, it makes the most sense if he had the Ring with him, but that decision is more like 60% vs 40%. 😉
And of course it also depends on how seriously one takes his letters and later remarks, which can lead to problems in several respects, for example also concerning the origin of the orcs, i.e. whether they rather descend from elves, humans or animals...
Tolkien started to philosophize about this later, which would have led to considerable inconsistencies. Or to the necessity to edit many texts again.
Therefore, in my opinion, it does not make much sense to settle on one particular theory, but must keep several possibilities open at the same time (which can be given different probabilities, but which is partly subjective), analogous to the double-slit experiment in modern physics / quantum mechanics... 😉

When you read the Unfinished Tales, you get used to different parallel versions. And yet, with each different version, Tolkien's mindset becomes clear and follows a certain direction. So, despite different possibilities, it is not completely arbitrary and always follows his philosophy, even if the details vary.

Yes it is at the core of my argument along with the wording of the statement of how Sauron came to "Take up" the One Ring again. As for the meaning of "Take up", if you wish to discuss exact meaning then we must first look at British English as this is the language in which Tolkien wrote The Lord of the Rings and the Silmarillion as far as it went. Further, we must look at the Oxford English Dictionary in use at the time of, and prior to, the writing. My interpretation of the meaning is to Pick up a weapon or tool to make ready to use. During the various wars Britain has been involved in people "Took up arms and went to war". As for when they used the weapons that could have been months later.

As for Sauron being weaker in the third age, I have dealt with that:-

There was in all probability a psychic link that could only be broken by the forcible removal of the Ring such as happened when Isildur cut it from his hand.

So when he removed the Ring himself he retained the link and could use most of the power in the ring. When Isildur cut it from Sauron's hand then that link was broken and he did not know where it was and could only access what it retained of his power with difficulty.

I agree that Tolkien changed his mind, he did so many times about many things in the Hobbit, the Lord of the Rings, the Silmarillion and so on. I don't see where there is a contradiction, just a different way of reading what he wrote in different places.

 

[Annatar]

I agree that Tolkien changed his mind, he did so many times about many things in the Hobbit, the Lord of the Rings, the Silmarillion and so on. I don't see where there is a contradiction, just a different way of reading what he wrote in different places.

👍 As indicated, I try to keep contradictory details always open in possible "parallel dimensions". The respective probabilities may be interpreted by everyone as one likes, but some arguments find more attention with connoisseurs and readers than others. In this case I would not see too much difference, because both possibilities do not show many differences in their consequence and at the same time both possibilities show more or less considerable weak points in their logic or existing description.
So this discussion is perhaps as useful as the question if Balrogs had wings (and if so, if they could fly with them or just hover or if they were just for "decoration" or purely metaphorical). In the end, it doesn't matter, but it adds to the mood no matter how you interpret it. And as for Sauron and Numenor, ultimately the One Ring must also be accommodated somehow, albeit after the fact and with open interpretation as to its physical location.

If you want to know exactly, you have to be able to read Tolkien's mind at different times, and you have to keep in mind that he constantly revised his texts and it was not uncommon that after several changes he sometimes returned to the origin or to an intermediate version...
So he was a constant tinkerer, see "Leaf by Niggle". Of course, this doesn't mean that everything is completely arbitrary; it still remains clear what he's getting at.

 

[Elassar]

I don't know but I would say that sauron had it with him the whole time

 

[Gothmog]

👍 As indicated, I try to keep contradictory details always open in possible "parallel dimensions". The respective probabilities may be interpreted by everyone as one likes, but some arguments find more attention with connoisseurs and readers than others. In this case I would not see too much difference, because both possibilities do not show many differences in their consequence and at the same time both possibilities show more or less considerable weak points in their logic or existing description.

There are many contradictory details throughout the writings of Tolkien, I simply interpret them according to the applicability I find with them. Then again, I am only a simple reader of Tolkien. As for differences in consequence, there are none. With the One Ring on his hand or with it left in the Barad-dur Numenorians were dominated, subverted, and turned against the Valar. Numenor was destroyed and the world was changed.

I don't see any “considerable weak points”. Some differences in how the wording is to be interpreted which gives rise to a debate of some minor interest but the weakness in each is also minor.

Can Sauron unbodied move a physical object. I would be very surprised if he could not. The Valar and the Maia spent much time working on Arda before they thought of bodies.

Is there a psychic link between the part of Sauron bound in the One Ring and the Sauron that walks about that allows for Sauron to use his full power (un-augmented) if he chooses to remove the Ring and leave it behind. I don't find this to be a problem and it seems to me that as it is Sauron both in the body and in the One Ring, it is very likely that this can happen.

The issue of why Sauron is in the Third Age so weakened is a separate question. Can such a psychic link (if it exists) be severed, or at least disrupted, by any means. It is certain that the link cannot be severed except by the complete destruction of the Ring. However, it would seem that the forcible removal of the Ring such as Isildur cutting it from his hand did disrupt the link causing Sauron to be un-bodied and much weakened. That the link existed and was working is shown by the fact that over time Sauron was able to slowly build for himself a new body (though missing a finger).

So this discussion is perhaps as useful as the question if Balrogs had wings (and if so, if they could fly with them or just hover or if they were just for "decoration" or purely metaphorical). In the end, it doesn't matter, but it adds to the mood no matter how you interpret it. And as for Sauron and Numenor, ultimately the One Ring must also be accommodated somehow, albeit after the fact and with open interpretation as to its physical location.

All discussions on here are equally as useful as the question as to why people think Balrogs had wings. Tolkien's works are all open to interpretation, and we as readers bring our own views, experiences, and biases to them and find much applicability there. There is some interest in debating certain aspects of the works.

If you want to know exactly, you have to be able to read Tolkien's mind at different times, and you have to keep in mind that he constantly revised his texts and it was not uncommon that after several changes he sometimes returned to the origin or to an intermediate version...
So he was a constant tinkerer, see "Leaf by Niggle". Of course, this doesn't mean that everything is completely arbitrary; it still remains clear what he's getting at.

If we knew exactly then there would be no possibility of debate and no need of a site such as this. Most members of this site are fully aware that Tolkien changed his mind often and even after publishing he was still not satisfied. While it is true in broad that “it still remains clear what he's getting at.” It is not necessarily true in fine. This is the place where we find things to debate.