The Power Of The Rings

[Lhunithiliel]

It is well known how all the magical rings were made.

I was thinking, however, what made the Elves (in particular) fear Sauron and his ring?

They had had already mighty magical objects before, including the rings. I know it was somewhere said in the books that their rings were used for good causes. Yet, they had great power! The Noldorians had also achieved great wonders with the help of the Elves and had left to their heirs lots of these achievements.
The Elven people, too, had great power, although fading away and although most of them had sailed to the West...
Sauron, I think, although a Maia, could not have been so dangerous to the Elves. They knew that the Valar had already forgiven them and that if in need, they could count on the Gods to interfere, as it had happened before. I think the Elves did not fear Sauron......
Or did they?

I guess someone will quote from the LOTR where Galadriel explains that the One Ring rules the others - the ones they had, and that is why they fear to use them.... All right. But somehow this still does not quite convince me that the Elves feared Sauron and his ring.

Well, what do you think of that?

 

[Maedhros]

My dear Lhunithiliel, before I post something that would clear your doubts about this subject, I would like for you to give your Sil one last read in the part about the Of The Rings of Power and the Third Age. I think that some of your questions will be answered fully by reading it again. The Sil is kind of complicated, and it takes time for it to "sink" in.

 

[Melian Le Fay]

Yey! No. 70!!!
don't mind me, I'm just posting my 70th post.......
Just kidding

I think Elves feared Sauron first because he was a Maia, which means he's a being more powerful than any of the "children of Iluvatar" (aka Men and Elves)
because he possesed The One Ring, meaning he could control theirs
and having this ring made him more powerfull, since he put all his strength in it, and thus gained great power...
and I guess because Sauron had killed many Elves in the Elder days, when he was still just a servant of Melkor Morgoth Bauglir.......
I don't know
Maedhros is right, understanding and memorising the Sil takes more than one reading....which means I have to read it again!!!!!!!!YEY!!!!!!!!!

 

[Walter]

Lhunithiliel,

even when our dear Maidhros does not bother to answer your questions I will try. What he so humbly was hinting at is, that indeed in The__Silmarillion are more than just a few passages, that seem to indicate clearly that the Elves feared Sauron (and not without a serious reason):

...As soon as Sauron set the One Ring upon his finger they were aware of him; and they knew him, and perceived that he would be master of them, and of all that they wrought. Then in anger and fear they took off their rings. But he, finding that he was betrayed and that the Elves were not deceived, was filled with wrath; and he came against them with open war, demanding that all the rings should be delivered to him, since the Elven-smiths could not have attained to their making without his lore and counsel. But the Elves fled from him; and three of their rings they saved, and bore them away, and hid them.

From that time war never ceased between Sauron and the Elves; and Eregion was laid waste, and Celebrimbor slain, and the doors of Moria were shut.

Thus the Black Years began, which the Elves call the Days of Flight. In that time many of the Elves of Middle-earth fled to Lindon and thence over the seas never to return; and many were destroyed by Sauron and his servants.

to quote but a few...

 

[Grond]

from Unfinished Tales, IV The History of Galadriel and Celeborn
When Sauron learned of the repentance and revolt of Celebrimbor his disguise fell and his wrath was revealed; and gathering a great force he moved over Calenardhon (Rohan) to the invasion of Eriador in the year 1695. When news of this reached Gil-galad he sent out a force under Elrond Half-elven; but Elrond had far to go, and Sauron turned north and made at once for Eregion. The scouts and vanguard of Sauron's host were already approaching when Celeborn made a sortie and drove them back; but though he was able to join his force to that of Elrond they could not return to Eregion, for Sauron's host was far greater than theirs, great enough both to hold them off and closely to invest Eregion. At last the attackers broke into Eregion with ruin and devastation, and captured the chief object of Sauron's assault, the House of the Mírdain, where were their smithies and their treasures. Celebrimbor, desperate, himself withstood Sauron on the steps of the great door of the Mírdain; but he was grappled and taken captive, and the House was ransacked. There Sauron took the Nine Rings and other lesser works of the Mírdain; but the Seven and the Three he could not find. Then Celebrimbor was put to torment, and Sauron learned from him where the Seven were bestowed. This Celebrimbor revealed, because neither the Seven nor the Nine did he value as he valued the Three; the Seven and the Nine were made with Sauron's aid, whereas the Three were made by Celebrimbor alone, with a different power and purpose. [It is not actually said here that Sauron at this time took possession of the Seven Rings, though the implication seems clear that he did so. In Appendix A (III) to The Lord of the Rings it is said that there was a belief among the Dwarves of Durin's Folk that the Ring of Durin III, King of Khazad-dûm, was given to him by the Elven-smiths themselves, and nothing is said in the present text about the way in which the Seven Rings came into possession of the Dwarves.] Concerning the Three Rings Sauron could learn nothing from Celebrimbor; and he had him put to death. But he guessed the truth, that the Three had been committed to Elvish guardians: and that must mean to Galadriel and Gil-galad.

In black anger he turned back to battle; and bearing as a banner Celebrimbor's body hung upon a pole, shot through with Orc-arrows, he turned upon the forces of Elrond. Elrond had gathered such a few of the Elves of Eregion as had escaped, but he had no force to withstand the onset. He would indeed have been overwhelmed had not Sauron host been attacked in the rear; for Durin sent out a force of Dwarves from Khazad-dûm, and with them came Elves of Lórinand led by Amroth. Elrond was able to extricate himself, but he was forced away northwards, and it was at that time [in the year 1697, according to the Tale of Years] that he established a refuge and stronghold at Imladris (Rivendell). Sauron withdrew the pursuit of Elrond and turned upon the Dwarves and the Elves of Lórinand, whom he drove back; but the Gates of Moria were shut, and he could not enter. Ever afterwards Moria had Sauron's hate, and all Orcs were commanded to harry Dwarves whenever they might.

I would guess the Elves feared Sauron.

 

[Brent]

Grond will give you the passage but I recall that in an Essay on the Istari Olorin (Gandalf) states his reason for not wanting to go to ME is because he fears to go, I took this to mean, though I don't think its stated that he feared a) being bound to physical form because it would weaken him b) he feared Sauron. And Olorin was a Maia !! So if a Maia feared Sauron an Elf certainly would.

Wisely Manwe sent him for this fear was all the more reason for him to go, because he perceived the danger.
Sauron was one of the greatest of the Maia, his master Melkor was accounted the most mighty of the Valar and Sauron was his lieutenant. Trusted by Melkor above all others, enjoying freedom of command and privy to his counsel and thoughts. In their thousands of years together Sauron would have learned much.

The Elves thus feared him and they were wise to do so

 

[Walter]

Most of the remaining writings about the Istari (as a group) are unhappily no more than very rapid jottings, often illegible. Of major interest, however, is a brief and very hasty sketch of a narrative, telling of a council of the Valar, summoned it seems by Manwë ("and maybe he called upon Eru for counsel?"), at which it was resolved to send out three emissaries to Middle-earth. "Who would go ? For they must be mighty, peers of Sauron, but must forgo might, and clothe themselves in flesh so as to treat on equality and win the trust of Elves and Men. But this would imperil them, dimming their wisdom and knowledge, and confusing them with fears, cares, and weariness coming from the flesh." But two only came forward: Curumo, who was chosen by Aulë, and Alatar, who was sent by Oromë. Then Manwë asked, where was Olórin ? And Olórin, who was clad in grey, and having just entered from a journey had seated himself at the edge of the council, asked what Manwë would have of him. Manwë replied that he wished Olórin to go as the third messenger to Middle-earth (and it is remarked in parentheses that "Olórin was a lover of the Eldar that remained," apparently to explain Manwë's choice). But Olórin declared that he was too weak for such a task, and that he feared Sauron. Then Manwë said that that was all the more reason why he should go, and that he commanded Olórin (illegible words follow that seems to contain word "third"). But at that Varda looked up and said: "Not as the third;" and Curumo remembered it.

 

[Maedhros]

because he possesed The One Ring, meaning he could control theirs and having this ring made him more powerfull, since he put all his strength in it, and thus gained great power...

What are you saying? That the One ring made Sauron more powerful because he put some of his power in it or it made Sauron more powerful because he could control other beings?

 

[Melian Le Fay]

I understood Sauron's forging of one ring as a gamble. He put all his strength in one magical thing, concentrated it, and thus gained greater power, but if the ring was lost, it would make him weak, and if the ring was destroyed, it would kill him ( turn him into a shadow). So I guess, "he who risks, gains".... And, of course, the ring also gave him control over other rings...So, altogether, he became more powerfull then ever. Sauron's having the ring ment distruction of the world as people of ME knew it, and slavery for all....so, why didn't he have such a power before the forging of the ring?

 

[Dwimmerlaik]

Millena,
You are indeed correct in your observations of Sauron's ring with it's potential and it's attendant(and ultimately disastrous)limitations.
However at the time of the forging of the ring's of power Sauron was not nearly as powerful and omnipotent as he was later to become.Remember that this was the time after Morgoth's fall and Sauron was attempting to pass himself off as an upstanding member of society.He had great power and a cunning mind yes,but at this time it wasn't enough to suit his purposes.
Therefore Sauron aided those elves(that he thought he could influence and later corrupt),that would let him and it was in the form of this aid and guidance that the smiths of Ost-in-Edhil were able to produce the rings of power.
Sauron didn't make the rings but only gave advice in the making of them.If we remember that one fact it becomes clear that Sauron's "advice" was tainted to his own advantage,and that all of the ring's that the elve's made were liable to the influence of the master ring that Sauron was later to make.
So if Sauron's plan's were to come to fruition,all the ring's would have been tangentially connected(through his guidance in their making).Therefore the combined power of the wearers' and the inherent power of each ring,would have expotentially increased Sauron's power.
It was a gamble,but one a supreme optimitist and with an ego to match,would have felt confident of paying a dividend.
I say optimist,because with Sauron's long experence of the elve's,he really should have known better.

 

[Melian Le Fay]

Yes, you're right. I read the Sil and LOTR only once so far, and there were some details I forgot. I understand that Sauron still had the power to show himself as a fair being (like other valar and Maiar)...I think...the forging od the rings was before the downfall of Numenor, right?
But, still, how did he manage to deceive all the elves?
You also menitoned "the combine power of the wearers"...But Sauron stole the rings from the Dwarves, so you couldn't count on their power...And he also knew that the Elves would never use their rings again, once they learn of the one ring...But, he wanted to posses those rings anyway. So, does the sole possesion of the rings increase his powers?

 

[Dwimmerlaik]

Dear Millena,
Sauron didn't manage to deceive all of the elve's,Elrond and Gil-Galad and their folk being noticeable exceptions.
What I meant by the the combined power's of the wearer's,was that each being that wore one of these rings had certain power's.Be those power's-force of charachter and subtlety of mind,skill in craft's and power over their people's,or a combination of all of these.
If you add these individual's power's with the ring's power's(the ring's having a power because of the craft used in their making),and then multiply by the number of "ring-wearer's",you can then see the power that Sauron was hoping to draw on.
Sauron stole all the ring's that he could(to use at a later date),after it became clear to him that his original plan of using all the ring's failed.
He did,however,embark on a revised version of his original plan,giving the ring's that he had to those dwarf's and men that he thought powerful enough and suitably susceptible to his domination.This plan had limited success,due to the dwarves imperviousness to the will of Sauron.
Sauron then attempted to recover as many of the dwarf ring's as he could-again to use at a later date.
Posession of all ring's would have had a negligible increase in Sauron's power,it was his intention for them to be worn by the lords of the people's of middle earth,ergo-those that wore them were prone to Sauron's will,thus would he have been able to control middle earth through these ring's by his ring.
This is a long-winded answer,but I hope it clears up your question.

 

[Melian Le Fay]

Thanks, your answer cleared up some things for me... But when I asked if Sauron managed to decieve all Elves, I was thinking of the Elves who were involved in the making of the rings. And what about Celebrimbor? Wasn't he the chief craftsman? Was he also decieved by Sauron? It's one thing I just can't comprehend!! Say Celebrimbor and others never saw through Sauron until it was too late, why weren't they told about him? If Gil-Galad and Elrond knew that...? Why they didn't listen to their council?

 

[Lhunithiliel]

Oh, boy! Only less than a month has passed since I opened this thread, but I read now MY OWN question and I feel sooooooo wiser!
I can now explain the answer to MYSELF! Funny!
Anyway, THANK to ALL of you who have commented on the topic so far!

The quote I would like to provide hereunder is quite long but it gives answers not ONLY to my initial question, but also to some Millena (Zdravo, druje!) put forward. And though it is long, it is interesting!
Here it goes (from the Silmarillion, "About the Rings"):

Men he found the easiest to sway of all the peoples of the Earth; but long he sought to persuade the Elves to his service, for he knew that the Firstborn had the greater power; and he went far and wide among them, and his hue was still that of one both fair and wise. Only to Lindon he did not come, for Gil-galad and Elrond doubted him and his fair-seeming, and though they knew not who in truth he was they would not admit him to that land. But elsewhere the Elves received him gladly, and few among them hearkened to the messengers from Lindon bidding them beware; for Sauron took to himself the name of Annatar, the Lord of Gifts, and they had at first much profit from his friendship. And he said to them: "Alas, for the weakness of the great! For a mighty king is Gil-galad, and wise in all lore is Master Elrond, and yet they will not aid me in my labours. Can it be that they do not desire to see other lands become as blissful as their own? But wherefore should Middle-earth remain for ever desolate and dark, whereas the Elves could make it as fair as Eressea, nay even as Valinor? And since you have not returned thither, as you might, I perceive that you love this Middle-earth, as do I. Is it not then our task to labour together for its enrichment, and for the raising of all the Elven-kindreds that wander here untaught to the height of that power and knowledge which those have who are beyond the Sea?'

It's clear - the old philosopfy - "Devide et impera"

 

[Melian Le Fay]

Originally posted by Lhunithiliel
(Zdravo, druje!)

Whaaaaaaaaaaat..............? You speak my language? Oh, how wonderfull!
And thanks for answering so many of my questions!!!
The three elven rings were the reason so many elves left middle earth after the defeat of Sauron, did you know that?
They invested all their powers in those rings, and really made ME a better place - Lorien, Rivendell, etc. But, when they stopped using the rings, all the things they've made began fading... And when the one ring was destroyed, the power of theirs was also gone, and they felt very weary, and had to go to the west - Galadriel, Elrond...Gandalf... And all the things they've made eventually faded away...So saaaaaaaaaaaaaad!
But other Elves remained - the Elves of Mirkwood, Ithilien, etc. They returned to the kind of life they had before the Valar invited them to the west - simple, merry life... So, they are still there, and that brings hope! Middle Earth isn't left to Men only...
I think I'm a little possesed with this book!
And I feel great!

 

[Lhunithiliel]

Whaaaaaaaaaaat..............? You speak my language?

Well, I'd hardly say I SPEAK it, but I understand it 100%! I grew up on the border with Yugoslavia, I listened to your language ever since I remember myself...
I am SO HAPPY, Millena, that me, together with Gil-Galad and YOU are here! ... Hey, shall we form a "Guild of the Balkans" ?

And as for the rings - I think you're quite right!

Say, Elves are a constant character in the mythology of Britain and some Scandinavian countries....
1/ Brits and Scandinavians, do you still meet Elves in your lands?
2/ People from other contries - what is the equivalent to the Elves in the mythology of your peoples? And do they use magical objects to introduce their powers?

Millena, what would be our - Slavonic - Elves?
I am thinking of creatures our fairy-tales tell but they were women only... Strange... And these never used ANY magical object like a ring or smth. They used the magic of Natural forces ONLY and they were as powerfull as the English Elves.

I am impatient allready to get your answers !

 

[Melian Le Fay]

what? You are from Bulgaria? That's sooo cool!!! we should definitely form this little guild of ours... Do you know that Yugoslavia is the new world champion in basketball? Ha ha ha !!!
And as for your question about Elves... well, did you know that Kelts lived on Balkans long time ago, before the Slavs came? well, after the arival of Slavs, some of the Kelts left the Balkans and went to Britain and Ireland. but some of them remained, and eventually mixed up with our ancestors. And since Elves are also part of Keltic mythology, we "inherited" elves and fairies... Of course, all that mixed up with our own mythology, and then centuries passed, and all we had left are the legends of "Rusalke", the female-elf -like - creatures... And there are many legends left... they love the moon and the stars more then they love the sun.. (sounds familiar?), they are bonded with nature and use its forces, like you said... and so on, and so on... But they are often described as red haired women, and if any man sees them, they imprison him to live with them for seven years (poor man, huh?) or blind him if he refuses! But I can't remember much right now... Our mythology is very...wierd...
But as for the Scandinavians and Brits... I think Tolkien did a lot to form a description of Elves in our heads, and also formed some general opinion about Elves - the way hey look, the way they move, their music....
And what about the legends of Santa's little Elves? They don't look anything like Tolkien's Elves!!!
Or legends and fairy tales where Elves are described as little forest spirits, or small diabolic creatures...?
Do you know something like that?

And, did you and Gil - Galad ever talk about that guy Grond in Bulgarian? I wonder...
Hope you'll reply soon!

 

[Ithrynluin]

Originally posted by Lhunithiliel


I am SO HAPPY, Millena, that me, together with Gil-Galad and YOU are here! ... Hey, shall we form a "Guild of the Balkans" ?

Count me in too!

 

[Melian Le Fay]

we'll definitely count you in!