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The Real Theme

One suggestion for the "water:"

(just hit me!)

Seed: Lit and Lang
Soil: Theological premises
Water: Shock at the consequences of Modernity: WWI, the destruction of rural England, the "inexorable" march of technology.


IMO, it is the dynamic interaction of these three threads that gives tLotR its depth.
 
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Originally posted by Goroshimura
Yeah, but Tolkien was pretty critical of the O.E.D. Can we trust it? ;)
I wonder if he trusted those parts he had participated in, but be that as it may, in this case I would suggest a Latin dictionary...
So there's some kind of hidden philological message in LotR?
I don't think so...
IMO... both the linguistic and theological ideas/themes/notions/premises are about equally present in his works. Those two sets of ideas are the nuts and bolts from which the basic stucture of the setting is derived. Sort of the chemical composition of the props, as it were.
Somehow I fail to see the "theological" theme or message in Tolkiens works, I can see the applicability, but no "message" and besides, if there were one, it would be in clear contradiction to Tolkien's own statements.

What I do see, is a mythology with a basically polytheistic structure (the Valar), which in many ways resembles the older Nordic, Greek and Roman mythologies. This system is superimposed by an omnipotent all-creator and hence introducing christian elements (which are btw. not all that uncommon even in the Nordic mythology) to a basically pagan mythology (as some form of concession to his personal beliefs).

But of course I could be wrong...
 
The problem with Tolkien's works about Arda are not that there are no themes, but that there are so many themes that it is difficult to sort them out or separate them one from another. In fact, it may not be possible to do that anyway since often they merge and then separate several times throughout the stories.

Tolkien's work is like a great tapastry and anyone who has ever looked closely at fabric will see that it is composed of threads, some going one way, others going at right angles to the first. All are woven together to form the whole. Some threads may vary in color or even in texture. Some may be woven "loosely" to make a gauze-like translucent fabric, others may be woven more tightly and be heavier, producing a thicker, opaque fabric. But all the threads are necessary to produce the finished fabric.

However, there are main "threads" running through Tolkien's work. Love is one and not just "love" in the sense that we generally consider that emotion. Love of self is just as strong - and sometimes stronger - than love of even the most adored companion. Melkor becomes Morgoth because he loves himself more than he loves anyone or anything else - and he is not the only one who does so.

Death and immortality is another main thread. Tolkien calls death man's "gift", not his punishment. Why? Because it is intimated (and certainly would have been part of Tolkien's own belief system) that man is able to grow ever closer to his Creator because he leaves this world and its limitations which opens countless possibilities. On the other hand, the elves are forever doomed to live within the confines of this world while this world lasts - and I think that this is the most important point. As the Fellowship is finally broken, Gadriel replies to Treebeard's question as to whether they will ever meet again: "Not in Middle-earth, nor until the lands that lie under the wave are lifted up again. Then in the willow-meads of Tasarinan we may meet in the Spring. Farewell!"

Christians (or at least the Orthodox and R.Catholics) believe that at the time of the Last Judgment, the World will be made anew, the Kingdom of God in which all that was fair and good will once again exist. After all, man was made for this world and the world for man. The things that most of us love are the same as those things that the elves love and that they attempt to keep from being destroyed by the passage of time in the mortal lands. It was for this reason that the Elven Rings were made and not as means of gaining power over others or for strength in war.

It may be that at the end of all things, the sundering of the Children of Illuvatar may cease as the lands that presently lie under the wave are lifted up and all that was beautiful and good restored. But, of course, Tolkien makes no pronouncement on that and as far as the elves in his story are concerned, those of their kind who choose mortality are lost to them forever. And yet, Galadriel's statement to Treebeard (a mortal creature) bears the promise that such may not be the case.
 
When i was reading the books, and as i am, ive found that I think the central theme of LOTR is the diminishing of the Elves, and the rise of Men. And this makes an already hard quest even harder, because Gondor, the main realm of Men is failing. Thank god for the Rohirrim.

I think Mrs.Maggot put it right. There is no main theme. Too many themes.

LOTR, is about the rise and fall of an enemy. What strength is left in this enemy falls into the hands of our main character Frodo. As the enemy regains strength, our main character is in a quest to destroy it. At the peak of the enemys power, and the near unavoidable victory of him, Frodo sneaks behind his back, and destroys him. (thats how i generaly see it)

A 8th grade bully is bullying a bunch of 5th graders. The 5th graders take a low blow and the bully falls. The strongest 5th graders flee and leave the weak 5th graders because they fear that they could get hurt when the bully recovers strength. Another 8th grader (gandalf), that isnt as strong as the bully, comes and helps the 5th graders and now the bully is so mad that he comes up fists blazing, and when all hope fails, and the remaining 5th graders think theyre gonna lose, a 1st grader goes and gets the princapal, and ends the bullying once and for all. The 1st grader got the princapal, cuz the friendly eith grader asked him to


Sauron is reaking havoc on ME, and the elves and men. the elves and men win the battle of Dagorlad plain luckily, and Sauron looses much of his strength. the Elves now are leaving middle earth, because of the growing shadow of the world. Men stay.Gandalf is now in middle earth, to finish him once and for all. Sauron is regaining much of his strength, and finaly launches an assault on middle-earth (helms deep, pellenor feilds). Now at the battle at the Moranon, all hope has failed, and in the nick of time, before they are finaly destroyed, the ring is destroyed and so is evil, once and for all. Frodo went to destroy the ring, because Gandalf asked him to

do you see any simalarities between these 2 stories?
I know it has nothing to do with this topic, but it fits here more than anywere else. hehe
 
I do not have much to add to this thread, but I feel Tolkien was a very intelligient man who was able to write books that individuals would read, and each reader would find different themes, and those themes would be applicable to them particularly, what i mean is a christian will find christian themes, a pagan will find pagan themes,a buddist, buddist themes. Although power and domination, life and death, creation and sub creation, are some of the themes, there are others, such as, doing what you know to be right, no matter how hard that is.
Tolkien created a world, that i am sure many people would love to live in, I think Tolkien had a great intuition, and understanding of people in general.
 

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