The secret of names?

ithy said:

And like Walt said, you can get it for three bucks.

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...including Appendix D of Quendi and Eldar, which CT decided to omit when he published the essay in HoMeXI (c.f. WJ:359)...

Lhun said:

The way it sounds to me ML, it is very close to the Russian "царевич" = son of the King; prince. In all cases, it has to do with the Slavonic word "цар"= king. (But don't you please now put a crown on !! )

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Wow! I didn't know I have "royal ancestors". Now, if that doesn't explain something...
As for the crown, no I would never...besides...would one wear it underneath or on top of the halo?

Based upon all this, I personally so much agree with the way the Ents used to name things and creatures in ME. A name bears a history behind and this history has to be revealed somehow in a name ...
What a task!

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I'm not sure my son would've liked something like a-lalla-lalla-rumba-kamanda-lind-or-burúmë_ as a first name...

Lhunithiliel said:

...How many of you are parents? Have you been in the situation of picking up a name for your own child?...

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I have three grown children. We had no trouble at all in picking the name for our first girl. I made sure that our second child, my son, had a name that nobody would tease him about as happened to me. In fact I hated my first name so much that I legally changed it. And no trouble with naming the third child, a girl.

(When I was in court to have my name changed, I was listening to the guy in front of me who was talking to the judge.

JUDGE: Sir, what is your name?
MAN: My name is Jerome Schneck, Your Honor.
JUDGE: And what would you like to change your name to, sir?
MAN: Sidney Schneck, Your Honor.)

Lotho

PS: BTW, Ithrynluin, that glowing purple Pegasus you have is a VERY impressive avatar!

Walter said:

Wow! I didn't know I have "royal ancestors". Now, if that doesn't explain something...

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Indeed!
BTW, the Slavonic word "цар" (=king) is a derivative and a bit twisted form of Caesar ... so ...imagine where your roots lie!!!!

As for the crown, no I would never...besides...would one wear it underneath or on top of the halo?

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Eh! I'm afraid you'll have to chose one out of the two, your Royal Saintness
... the halo or the crown.....the crown or the halo....the halo or....

I'm not sure my son would've liked something like a-lalla-lalla-rumba-kamanda-lind-or-burúmë_ as a first name...

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Well, no of course! The history this particular name tells about is far from something like "the one who rambles, twaddles, twaddle, gabbles, jabbers etc.
But how about: He, who carried the young Jesus across the river and He, who is patron of all the travellers and He, after whose name the greatest explorer of mankind - the discoverer of new worlds, was named, and He, who gave his name to the man who dedicated his life to gather and publish all the valuable pieces of writing of his father and give them to generations and generations of hopeless and devoted fantasy fans...
Hmmm????
How about that?
Would've he liked that?

I think Tolkien's son was deliberately named after the Christ-bearer; in the letters from Father Christmas, it was sometimes spelt Xtopher.

Walter said:

Farmer, as a modern rendering from "earth-worker" (Indo-European roots gē + werg), perhaps? Or - maybe more "on-topic" of your book - a Celtic (Welsch) form of that.

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Great idea! I'll follow it up; and as long as it doesn't sound rude or silly in English... it may become part of my new nom de plume.

Helcaraxë said:

[...] Eru created the world when he says "Eä!" Gandalf can make fire with a few words. But I'm sure if Aragorn had said "You there! Stick! Burst into flame!" nothing would have happened. So obviously, which name is used makes a great difference.

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But Gandalf 'only' spoke in Elvish, and all he said was "Let there be fire to save us!" (YTMV.) Aragorn could have copied Gandalf's correctly-formed vowels and said "Naur an edraith ammen!" and his stick would still have remained unaffected.

Helcaraxë said:

The fact that Eru caused the world to come into existence with a spoken word and the Ainur fashioned it with a song shows that words can affect reality.

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Forgive me, but one of my favourite things to point out is that Ainulindalë is dealing in high metaphor at this point. The term "The Timeless Halls" is used to represent something so abstract that it existed before/outside/independently of the existence of matter, time or space. Eru and the Valar "dwelling" in "the Timeless Halls" are not comparable with rational incarnates, and must be presumed to lack anything resembling a voicebox. When it is said -- by the Elves -- in Ainulindalë that the Ainur "sang" the Song, or that Eru "said" Ea! these are just the nearest the Elves can come in metaphor to represent things utterly outside their frames of reference.


Another telling passage on the significance of name is in Laws and Customs of the Quendi and Eldar (Morgoth's Ring, HoME X) where he has the Elves practicing insight and foresight in the giving of names... BUT that then goes on to say that they expressly didn't hold them to have any magical significance.
This seems to me to be an intrusion of "consciously Catholic" ethic, taking the avoidance of glamourising cultic, pagan or magical practices to an uncomfortable extreme, after having set forth all the significance that Treebeard and the Dwarves give to names. One hates to gainsay the direct statements of the professor himself, but it can sometimes become sorely tempting!

Helcaraxë said:

So where does Tolkien's concept of an inherent power (Letter # 155) play in? Obviously some inherent power is required to make these words efficacious. Although it is also quite clear that this inherent power is not limited to words- the Ainur and even the Elves can have real effects on the world through magic that is an inherent power without speaking. Possibly because thought is also a sort of speech, in this context?

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You are looking for "intent" or "the will". I consider the important thing not to be the uttering of speech or song, but the 'power of words', which can also include the carving of runes, and the putting forth of intent that occurs in the process.


The essay Osanwë-kenta is clear that those with the habit of language, or tengwesta even when communicating in 'pure' thought, actually shape their thoughts in word-forms, and are still hence using language. The thought behind the words is unconsciously also projected whenever words are uttered, e.g. contributing to Sam's ability to understand the thoughts behind words spoken in Orcish (when wearing the Ring), and Finrod's ability to understand the folk of Bëor. But I do believe that the thought -- or will -- is much stronger when the words are externalised by being spoken out loud or committed to writing.


Well, committing this to writing has helped me to clarify my own previously internal conceptualisation of the whole matter, but I won't get any clearer on anything if I don't get some sleep.


Cheers!
--Os.

Ithrynluin said:

Why are real names deemed to be so powerful and something to be protected as a secret no matter what?...I suspect the roots of this lie in some of our own mythologies and histories, hence my putting this thread in this forum.

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In many "primitive" cultures, names were and are believed to be synonymous with one's soul, and one's soul is to be protected at all costs. If someone knew your real name it would give them power over your soul.

Barley

someone mentiones the Earthsea series earlier, in that myhtology everyone has two names, a 'public 'name, which they would conduct their everyday lives in, and a 'private' one, which was given when approaching puberty, kind of like a bar-mitzvah, but that private name you would guard, you might tell it to one person in your lifetime, maybe your wife or your mentor, but only the very foolish or the very wise would reveal their 'real' names to everyone.

The Power of Names

The 'Power' of Names in General
Folklore and fantasy literature both contain frequent references to the significance of names. It is often stated that knowledge of a being's name -- especially a 'true name' if they have one -- gives a great power over that being.
If a name relates something about the true nature of the being, then just having that knowledge is power of a sort, but in general it seems to be the utterance of a name that really exercises the power, of whatever nature it is.

In daily conversation people hardly ever use the name of the person they're talking to -- it's generaly reserved for getting their attention or reminding them that they are the one being addressed, and saying someone's name is a particularly effective way of breaking in to their flow in order to respond. Particular use of this is made on the phone where the non-verbal cues of body language etc. have no effect, and by politicans and debaters on TV.
Because of this effectiveness of the use of names there is at least a psychological/sociological dynamic associated with it, whereby it is courteous to give your name in some situations, to bring an encounter a step away from the official more towards the personal, demonstrating trust, or giving away a 'pecking-order' advantage (either by introducing yourself, or by the cruder approach of wearing a name badge). By the same token it can be perceived as rude to withold your name in the same sort of situations.

Was it the observation by Ancients of this power dynamic that led them to extrapolate it to a higher and more numinous principle of magical power? Or was it that in ancient times people's names related more about their deeper being than the relatively mechanical names of modernity, and it was therefore closer to the truth to say that they represented a direct connection to the person's soul?

The Use of Names in Tolkien
Tolkien was certainly familiar with the significance of names in folklore, and presumably with the concept of the power of names in magical traditions including the Old Testament on the name of God, and the use of the names of spirits to command them to one's bidding in mediaeval magic. I've been in discussions before on the power the the use of names seems to hold, and apart from agreeing that there's something there, we've never really come up with a conclusive result.

But my thoughts coalesced in a new and different way when I read this line:

Eledhwen said:

Note that Sauron too did not permit the use of that name; The Silmarillion index gives its meaning as 'The Abhorred'.

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Instead of Sauron not wanting anyone to have magical power over him by knowing his name, maybe he just doesn't like being called the Abhorred! There's another power of naming right there as well: the power of 'propaganda' to devise a sobriquet that will stick, whether the subject likes it or not.

Tolkien was to a large extent playing with language when he gave names to the characters in his work. He wanted his writing to have the almost-intangible depth and authority that could be given by a well formed and mature real-language approach to naming (whereas the names used by so many of his imitators are seemingly just outlandish for the sake of it, and really grate on the senses). But he can't have anticipated the level of knowledge that his readers would build up, or the depth of incisive scrutiny his work would therefore receive. We now see many of the names he uses as rather transparent: Morwen for 'dark(-haired) maiden' works OK, but what if the boy called Halbarad had grown up to be a bit of a runt instead of a 'tall tower' of a man? And who would name their little girl Ioreth, or 'old maid'?!

Until now I'd always satisfied myself with this 'external' explanation of the names in Tolkien, derived from how the author's mind had worked. But if we are to be true scholars of the legendarium, we have to establish how they make sense via an 'internal' explanation -- one that works within the books to make sense to the denizens of Middle-earth themselves.

Characteristically, Tolkien worked it out for the Elves...

Now both these names, the father-name and the chosen name were true names, not nicknames; but the father-name was public and the chosen name was private, especially when use alone. The chosen names [...] they could lend or share with kindred or friends, but [...] could not be taken without leave. The use of the chosen name was a token of closest intimacy and love, when permitted. It was, therefore, presumptuous or insulting to use it without permission**. [...]

Anessi: the given (or added) names. Of these the most important were the so-called ‘mother-names’. The most notable of these were the ‘names of insight’, essi tercenyë, or of ‘foresight’, apacenyë. In the hour of birth, or on some other occasion of moment, the mother might give a name to her child, indicating some dominant feature of its nature as perceived by her, or some foresight of its special fate.

With changes of inwisti (mind-mood), the lámatyávë (the individual pleasure in the sounds and forms of words) might change, such that the Elda might devise for himself a new chosen name.

OF NAMING; Morgoth’s Ring pp. 214-217]​

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Since names like 'tall tower' and 'old maid' do play true for the Mannish folk of the Third Age, I think the Elven attitudes to names must have been adopted and retained by the Faithful along with their use of the Sindarin tongue. The names are truthful reflections of the people they represent because they were either insightful, foresightful, or chosen as a new name later in life when the individual knew what they wanted to be called.

So it would seem that in addition to the 'common' psychological effect of using a person's name on them, such names would indeed hold some true insight into the person themselves, and therefore afford knowledge that could amount to a bit or power, of a sort.

But is there a force of magic at work? Tolkien's notes on this passage reveal his own position on the matter -- and how he shifted it!

** This sentiment had thus nothing to do with ‘magic’ or with taboos, such as are found among Men. (15)

(15) In version A: This feeling had nothing to do with ‘magic’ or taboo. The Eldar did believe in a special relation between a name of a person and his life and individuality; but this concerned both first or second name (alone or together) which they might conceal from enemies.

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I think this reveals that Tolkien did consider there to be "a special relation between a name of a person and his life and individuality" but that he effectively censored himself to avoid readers misinterpreting this as a reference to a specialised or sophisticated magical power in naming after the fashion of mediaeval sorcery.

Personally I'd love to flesh out what taboos the Men of Middle-earth do actually hold. If superstitious Men believe in the power, then it affords a power of manipulating them regardless of whether there's any magic there or not!

And on a purely speculative level, I suggest that the knowledge and use of a person's name probably makes it easier to reach their mind by ósanwë -- at least in that it must be harder to reach someone whose name you don't even know (if you can reach them at all!).
And 'invoking' their name probably aids one in an effort to Daunt them with the power of one's will, as in the contest between Aragorn and the Mouth of Sauron.
It's starting to feel like it is nothing to do with ritualised practices of magical 'lore' or 'sorcery', but relates more to 'inherent magic'...

Cheers!
--Os.

I am not sure if this was already posted but there is exapmle of public and secret names in the Lord of the Rings. A very obvious one even. When Aragorn's mother left him in Rivendell she gave him the name of Estel to hide his true heritage from others and himself. When he was old enough Elrond told him his true name and gave him the heirlooms of Gondor (the ring of Barahir, The Broken Sword, and his rightful name.) Not accepting his royal blood he took the name Strider to hide his true lineage from others. Only when he became king did he rightfully take on the name of Aragorn.


If his name had been revealed to others earlier it seems very unlikely that he would have lived so long. Hiding his name from others was almost a sort of protection.




Aisteru

Recall that Smaug was trying to wheedle Bilbo’s name out of him, but Tolkien notes that when talking to dragons, “you don’t want to reveal your proper name”, presumably because if the dragon knows your name, he will use it and you may more easily fall “under the dragon-spell.” Such happened to both Turin and his sister Nienor.

In Genesis 3:29, when Jacob wrestles in the night with the man who comes upon him at the ford Jabbok (Penuel), the man refused to reveal his name, but he did bless Jacob:

And Jacob asked him, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there.

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In Exodus 3:13–14, when Moses meets God at the burning bush, this exchange takes place in which God reveals His name to Moses:

And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them? And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

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In Tolkien’s world, the Elves have at least two names or essi, and often a name added later, the epessë, by the people around them. (I am repeating part of Osric’s post: I failed to notice it before I wrote, but fortunately, just as I began to post.) An Elf could also give himself names, kilmessi, or names of personal choice. In Peoples of Middle-earth, “The Shibboleth of Fëanor”, this system is described. At birth, an Elf-child received a “father-name”, and a “mother-name” given either then or at a later time. The “mother-name” was believed to have a special insight into the child. Fëanor’s father-name was Finwë (“Skilled One”), the same name his father bore, though it was later modified to Kurufinwë or “Skillful [son of] Skilled One”. (This was also the name of Fëanor’s fifth son, Curufin, which is the Sindarin equivalent.) His mother-name was Fëanor, “Spirit of Fire”, and it is by this name he was known. Galadriel’s father-name was Artanis, “Noble Woman”, and her mother-name was Nerwendë, “Man-Maiden”, for her great strength of body and will, as great as any of the nerí (men) of the Noldor. But her lover Celeborn called her Alatáriel, which might be translated as “Maiden Crowned with a Festival Garland” in reference to her beautiful hair, and in Sindarin this became Galadriel, her epessë, by which she was known.

Findarató Ingoldo was the elder brother of Galadriel and the eldest child of Finarfin, who refused to proceed in the Flight of the Noldor, turned backed, and was made King of the Noldor in place of his murdered father, Finwë, and his elder brothers who continued to Middle-earth, Fëanor and Fingolfin. Findarató Ingoldo, however, is not Quenya, the language of the Noldor, but Telerin, for Finarfin’s wife was Eärwen, the daughter of Olwë, King of the Teleri and brother of Elu Thingol. (“Thingol”, “Grey-Cloak”, is an epessë.) Findarató might be translated as either “Noble Finwë” or “Noble Golden Hair” (the latter is the translation offered in “Shibboleth”, the former elsewhere); the golden hair of Findarató Ingoldo and his sister Galadriel came from their father’s mother, Indis of the Vanyar. Ingoldo might mean “Wise One” (related to the Quenya Ñgoldo, “one of the Noldor”), so the whole name might (with a little imagination) be taken to mean “Noble Golden Haired Noldo”. But his Telerin name was pronounced in Sindarin as Finrod, and he was given not one but two epessi, and neither by Elves. He was first given the epessë Felagund by the Dwarves, and it was in fact a Dwarvish name meaning “Hewer of Caves” and referred to his expansion of the caves above the river Narog to construct the hidden city of Nargothrond. He also bore a second epessë given to him by the Edain of the First House and their first lord in Beleriand, Balan Bëor the Old: this was Nóm, “the Wise”, and may mean the same as Ingoldo. Notice that both epessi of Finrod Felagund are in non-Elvish tongues, reflecting his importance not only among the Elves, but to the people among whom they lived.

Since we began by speaking of the names of Dwarves, let me end that way. “Not even on their tombs do they inscribe” their true names (Return of the King, “Appendix F”), but on the tomb of Balin were his common names and title inscribed in Westron and in Khazâd.

And notice that the Common written across the bottom of the tomb-slab – the upper part is in Dwarvish – transliterates to “Balin sen ov Fundin Lord ov Moria”. Not Westron, but English.

(TTF'er “Barliman Butterbur” used to be called “Lotho_Pimple”?!!?)

Names were important for important folk. Gimli ,son of Gloin, Aragorn and the Hobbits were important people. They could not reveal their names so easily to any other unless they were dealing with a friend because the spies of Enemy had ears everywhere. Persons like Treebeard revealed their names only when they knew they were safe.
While, dwarves were a stubborn folk. They preferred keeping their names secret due to Enemy. They also had a Chieftain to protect Dunedain had. You can't tell your names to anybody you do not know fully. It would arouse suspicion. Dwarves also had enmity with Elves. And they seldom had dealings with men. So they had to hide their names. One reason also was their language which they regarded great indeed as a language of lore.

I already have a pen-name for my written works. It's more of a privacy thing with that though. As everyone here already stated: Names have power.

By the by, I have a royal ancestor on my Mother's side from her Mother with a name that's spelled no other way than my grandma's maiden name!

I should be expecting a crown anytime soon.

In my Fantasy works, my character's have titles gained from deeds they have done all over. One's real name though just strikes fear in the hearts of baddies.

If ever I have a son, I want to give him a name with a royal meaning, just like I do, just to continue the trend.

Names are fun, especially when you invent them!!

CL

Good Cirdan,well, my name Ingolmin isn't also real. I have another name in the tongue of Men that is Westron. But in that name my lineage is hidden.
Do I not claim my descent from Elrond?
It can also be from his daughter's side(that means Eldarion or also from his sons). But how I will not reveal to anybody. The Earth has become very perilious nowadays. Many men have ruled like tyrants and Dark Lords such as Melkor and Sauron and they did no mercy to any human.
They still want to destroy the Ancient Line of Wanderers(Descendants of __). I will not reveal the name of any ancestor of the Third or Fourth Age except Elrond.
While we wanderers were once great healers and my forefathers were great loremasters. They had a lot of willpower as we have the blood of Earendil in us still. Do you want to know about the descendants of the Great Kings(of Arnor and Gondor) in this age?
Well I believe that being a wanderer, I have a great purpose. I have to rise above all my fathers since the days of ____.