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The Silmarillion:Ainulindalë

From the Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth:
As to why he stopped the vision:
'Or again, since Eru is for ever free, maybe he made no Music and showed no Vision beyond a certain point. Beyond that point we cannot see or know, until by our own roads we come there, Valar or Eldar or Men.
Ilúvatar can't reveal all I guess. There is still the fact that Men will rule the world after and their paths are could only be grasped by Eru alone.
From the Published Silmarillion:
From the Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth:
This is an interpretation of Finrod about the music at the end of days. Very interesting to note that they thought that men were going to be very important and in fact deliver them from "death" of Arda.
From the Letters 212:
 
Oh, Master of the quotes!!!
How is it that you ALWAYS find the right extract to help others out?!

What you have said I suspected, for I have not yet come to the letters and there are so many pieces if information to be still gathered to complete the puzzle called "Tolkien" !
 
Re: Sil:Ainulindalë

Okay, I've read this thread from start to finish and before I get into the meat of the discussion, I will lay out my own beliefs concerning the insightful questions propounded by Maedhros. I don't think we need to go any further than the first few paragraphs to find the easiest answer to this question. Melkor had already taken a different path and that indicates to me that his inner core, while the greatest, is also the most inquisitive and searching. All of the other Ainur seem content to await Eru's instructions whereas Melkor seems to want to be Eru. I have always thought that the Ainur's characteristics were decided by what "gifts" Eru bestowed upon them when they were born of His mind. Melkor received the greatest power and hence also received the greatest desire to create/order/direct. He wasn't evil in the beginning, he was merely a weaker image of Eru. His greatest desire was to emulate his Creator.
2. Is the Universe Predefined?
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As has already been pointed out in this discussion, I think the beginning of the Universe is predefined but the ending of the Universe is still in flux. The Music is not yet finished so it is ever changing and flowing. The basic Game Plan is laid out but not all the plays are made yet and those that are made are not always executed correctly.
3. Is Melkor's shame but the beginning of his downfall? Is this the beginning of the element of Pride?
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I think this is backwards. I think that the desire to create and control something of his own to be able to be Prideful of his own creation is where Melkor began his descent into shame and eventually corruption.
4. Were the Children of Ilúvatar a response to the discord of Melkor? Or was it just the fact that Ilúvatar wanted to made other beings in accord to what he knew best?
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Who can say? My thoughts are that Iluvatar didn't have a blueprint for the Music. He created the Ainur (offspring of His thought) and let them compose the Music. He was the conductor. He controlled the tempo and the ebb and flow. When Melkor sought to bring discord, the Conductor brought it back in tune with His vision of the symphony. Using my theory, the Children were the result of Iluvatar composing His own concerto to complete what He had conducted with the Ainur.

I will post my opinions on 5 - 10 later today.
 
We have spoken about the role of the Children of Illuvatar in the Music, but until now, we didn’t take into account the role of the Ainur. I understand their role as this: they were the composers of the Music (though some parts were not comprehensible even to them), but Music didn’t contain them. It contained Arda and the third theme contained also the Children of Illuvatar. Which means that they were supposed to prepare Arda for the Firstborn and Secondborn. As they sang it before Illuvatar, they would afterwards create it. And since Melkor chose the road of rebellion, their first battle sang before Eru, would happen in real. The role of the Ainur couldn’t thus be disjoint from the role of the Children. There would be no reason to create a world for nobody else to live in. This is why the third theme containing the Children could not be just the response to Melkor’s discord, but a plan originally conceived by Illuvatar (probably knowing the rebellion –which the yields the question of predefinition).
The matters of Ainulindale are mostly cosmogonical and theogonical and thus only assumptions are possible.
 
From the Published Silmarillion
It was Ilúvatar's theme from the beginning. They just played their part according to their knowledge.
Now the matter of Free Will:
Letters 153:
I believe that in the making of the third theme, it was the direct action of Melkor that created the Children of Ilúvatar. Melkor didn't know of their existence and by his disharmony he created something greater that he himself had thought.
From the Published Silmarillion:
And it proved to be true.
 
It all began so:
When the great "concerto" had finished:
But when they were come into the Void, Ilúvatar said to them: 'Behold your Music!' And he showed to them a vision, giving to them sight where before was only hearing; arid they saw a new World made visible before them.
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Every time I read this part of the story in the different sources I wonder:
> Did the Ainur actually KNOW that they were creating a new world?
It somehow seems to me that they did NOT.
> If however they knew what they were creating through their music, would they be more "careful" and "specific" in their solos ?
 

Actually it states in the Silmarillion that none of the Ainur had anything to do with the creation of the Children of Iluvatar. There are his creation alone.


So in essence, Iluvatar already had the theme prepared, and the children were already created in his mind. Melkor had nothing to do with the children's creation whatsoever.
 
Music of the Ainur

This are interesting things that I got out of the Music of the Ainur from BOLT 1.
Thereafter he fashioned them dwellings in the void, and dwelt among them, teaching them all manner of things, and the greatest of these was music.
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Made them dwellings in the Void? Interesting. Notice the inference that something was made before the Music.
Extremely familiar with the Published Silmarillon.
Notice that he speaks of Men and not the Children of Ilúvatar. Perhaps, that is why in the Athrabeth, when Finrod says that Men have the power to make things right that Melkor perverted in the theme?
Notice the detail and the emphasis in the time that Melkor spent in the Void. Did his thoughts had something to do with the fact that he was alone in the Void without the other Ainur?
Then Ilúvatar raised his right hand, and he no longer smiled but wept; and behold a third theme, and it was in no way like the others
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Notice the difference with the Published Silmarillion, here Ilúvatar wept.
Notice the quality in the detail, and the clarity in which it is implied that Arda Reborn or Remade is going to be better than Arda Unmarred.
Again the importance of Water, and the fact that the one most responsible for it, was the one who was most instructed by Ilúvatar in the art of Music.
Knowing all their hearts, still did Ilúvatar grant the desire of the Ainur, nor is it said he was grieved thereat.
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This is missing from the Published Silmarillion. Ilúvatar grieved from the departing of some of his Ainur.
Che pensi tu?
 
The quotes from BOLT 1 are very interesting, but we should be careful not to take everything as absolute, since they belong to a very early period of Tolkien’s thought and many statements may not actually stand in the revised Silamrillion.

-The dwellings of the Valar may not exist but the dwelling of Illuvatar is reffered to the published Silmarillion:
and the places of the dwelling of Ilúvatar were filled to overflowing, and the music and the echo of the music went out into the Void, and it was not void.
Click to expand...
But I think we shouldn’t take it literally. The Music was the inaugural moment of creation of Ea and this doesn’t mean that nothing else was created before the Music.

-Melkor’s walks in the void alone, imply a reason for his afterward rebellion. Also consider this quote:
and it seemed to him that Ilúvatar took no thought for the Void, and he was impatient of its emptiness
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Melkor’s initial purpose was creation and filling of the void. That’s a reason to believe that Melkor was in the beginning good and his long walks in the void where the light of Illuvatar was absent darkened his heart. Thus, we can associate his rebellion not as an outcome of his shame, but as a darkening of his heart in the void.

-That Illuvatar wept and that he grieved for the departure of some Ainur, I think that they belong to the early thoughts of Tolkien and were abandoned because they don’t fit in the cosmological theory. Illuvatar should have foreknown the actions of the Ainur and in fact this had to be his plan. Thus, any such behavior by him is, I think, not coherent.

-Now, the big question of the Second Music, the fact that only Men will join the Ainur in its making, is puzzling. Let’s examine how this matter changed through the years.
In Ainulindale of BOLT 1 it is said that:
In The Lost Road, Morgoth’s Ring and Silmarillion
The first part of each quote is in Ainulindale and the second was placed afterwards to the first chapter of Silmarillion proper.
This means that while the second part was always the same, that is Men will join the Valar in the Second Music, while the Elves don’t know their future, the first part was puzzlingly correct in the early passages and wrong in the later! I can’t of course explain this, but I think it is certain that the Elves will NOT take part in the Second Music.
Why is that? Is it that their role ends with the Final Battle as Finrod fears? Are they so bound to Arda that they have no existence outside of it? I don’t know but I’m sure that their role cannot end anywhere, since fea(soul) is believed to be immortal regardless of the possibility that it is bound to a place.
Having no sources to prove anything more, only imagination can confine us. So, my speculation is that since the Elves are so bound to Arda, it will not be destroyed after the Final Battle, but remade (somewhere said with the aid of the Dwarves) without the need of any Music. There they will live happily forever. Men on the other hand, will join the Ainur in a mightier Second Song, where their own habitation will be created. Of course, this means the sundering of the two races (and Elrond will not meet Arwen again). Another possibility is that the Second Music will not contain a new earth, but something else (here my imagination fails) and Men will rejoin Elves in Arda Remade and live together forever.
 
Melkor had to do with the Creation of the Children of Ilúvatar in the fact that by his discords in the music, Ilúvatar to counter him made the third theme in which the Children of Ilúvatar came into being.
I believe that both the Children of Ilúvatar will be involved in the making of the Music as stated by the Published Silmarillion, and a new Arda Remade will be better than the first one.
 

Again I post my quote, which you failed to respond to.

 
From the published Silmarillion we read:
This contradicts the passage of Ainulindale of the same book which says that both races will join in the Second Music. We can't have certain knowledge of what Tolkien thought about. So, I retain my opinion of my previous post.
 
Again I post my quote, which you failed to respond to.
Click to expand...
I did respond, but I will try and make it more obvious.
From the Published Silmarillion
And what was that strife and who cause it? Melkor. Therefore my statement:
He was therefore making the statement of Ilúvatar true.
Had Melkor imagined the Children of Ilúvatar, No. His dischords were met by a new theme of Ilúvatar that created them. I didn't say that he created them, I do say that it was because of his actions in the previous themes that caused Ilúvatar to make a third theme in which the Children of Ilúvatar were created.
From Chapter 1 of the Published Silmarillion
From the Ainulindalë:
But for a long while they sang only each alone, or but few together, while the rest hearkened; for each comprehended only that part of me mind of Ilúvatar from which he came
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This is not a contradiction. The Valar are not all knowing, only Ilúvatar is. The knowledge of the Ainur (Valar) is not complete, therefore it does not means that the Elves would not take part of a greater theme, it just goes to shows that they simply don't know. I believe this to be part of Ilúvatar's plan. He didn't tell Men what happened after their deaths, he also didn't tell neither Valar nor Elves what happened after the "End of Arda." (regarding elves) I will go forth with the first statement in the Ainulindalë and believe that it will be the Children of Ilúvatar, not only men who would take part in this.
This is I believe the reason that Finrod feels so ackward in the Athrabeth when speaking about the end of Arda.
 

No, it was not Melkors actions which caused Iluvatar to create a third them in which the children were created. The children had been previously thought out and planned as we can clearly see in the following quote


As is clearly pointed out by the passage Arda was made for the Children of Iluvatar. When Melkor began his discord Iluvatar didn't suddenly decide to create his children. Obviously they were preconcieved before the music even began. Now this can mean two things. Either Iluvatar new that Melkor would we rebel, and in knowing this planned to use his rebellion to create the children. This idea is supported by the following


or Iluvatar's music alone created the children and he did not know that Melkor would rebel. And Melkor's music simply did not change the planned outcome. This idea is supported by the following


I tend to lean towards the former simply because it clearly states that no Ainur had any part to play in the making of Iluvatar's children. Now if Melkor's rebellion was part of the making of the children then this quote would be contradicted.
 
From the Ainulindalë
Earlier Ilúvatar says:
The question is why did Ilúvatar interfere in the themes himself?
Ilúvatar's interventions in the music were made to counter those introduced by Melkor. The fact that the third theme made by Ilúvatar was made to counter him proves that as taken from this passages. It was the indirect action of Melkor to introduce his "ideas" into the music that caused the direct intervention of Ilúvatar.
Yet the passage that you quote comes later in the text. The Ainur had no knowlegde of the coming of the Children of Ilúvatar. If Melkor hadn't put his own thoughts into the music then perhaps Ilúvatar wouldn't have had to intervene himself.
or Iluvatar's music alone created the children and he did not know that Melkor would rebel. And Melkor's music simply did not change the planned outcome.
Click to expand...
Depends on the free will really.
Not really, the quote says that it was Ilúvatar's theme that created the Children of Ilúvatar. The Ainur had no direct part in that music and therefore had no direct intervention in their creation, yet it was Melkor's "thoughts" in the music that caused the direct intervention of Ilúvatar and in one of those interventions (Third Theme), the Children of Ilúvatar were created. If Melkor hadn't intervened, then perhaps the outcome would have been different or it could have been similar, who could know?
 
What about the chance that Iluvatar was planning from the start to have men in his world, but he decided later on during the music to include the elves. The fact that the firstborn do not leave the world like men do might be one piece of information that could help support this idea. I see what Meadhros says about Iluvatar creating the children in response to Melkor's discord and I think that could be true but I see no proof.
Also, when the Ainur saw the vision of the children of Iluvatar they thought that they had been preparing for this all along. Maybe they only prepared for men. Or maybe only for the elves.


Anybody have anything to add?
 

What you are saying is that if Melkor had not tried to mess things up then the Children might never have been created. I disagree again from the following quote we see that Arda was indeed created for the children.

"...and yet knew not that it had any purpose beyond its own beauty."
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As we can see Arda had a purpose beyond its beauty, which was to house the Children of Iluvatar. You are correct in saying that the Ainur had no knowlege of the coming of the children. This is simply because they are the ones which are creating the world for the Children to live in. Not the ones creating the Children themselves. Obviously Iluvatar knew all along that the Children would be living on Arda. Melkor's theme simply challenged Iluvatar's it did not change it nor did it cause it.
 
What you are saying is that if Melkor had not tried to mess things up then the Children might never have been created.
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It really annoys me when people put words that I don't say. The Children were probably would have been created in a different way, or the same, but in the way it happened, they were created in a theme to counter Melkor. I can't put it any simpler than that. It seems that I have hit a brick wall with Elu Thingol.
I see what Meadhros says about Iluvatar creating the children in response to Melkor's discord and I think that could be true but I see no proof.
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At least someone can grasp what I'm trying to say.Ilúvatar introduced the theme in which the Children of Ilúvatar were created to counter those of Melkor's. If Melkor hadn't introduced his "discords" then they would have been introduced in a different way.
Melkor's theme simply challenged Iluvatar's it did not change it nor did it cause it.
Click to expand...
Melkor's theme made Ilúvatar introduce his third theme in which the Children were created. Plain and simple. If not, then the Children more probably would have been introduced in another way.
 

What other way? Melkor did not force Ilúvatar to create the theme. He may have forced him to introduce the theme. I don't see what you mean by another way you will have to be more specific before I can respond.

I don't want to try and have to read your mind, you just have to explain your thoughts better
 
Last Try (Actual Ainulindalë scenario):
Cause
A. Music being played.
B. Melkor discord comes in.
Effect
C. Ilúvatar responds by adding his themes.
D. In Ilúvatar third theme the Children of Ilúvatar were made by him.

In this scenario, Ilúvatar's theme was in respond (effect) of the discords of Melkor (cause). If Melkor's discords were not in place, then who knows how the actual themes would have been played out (Arda Unmarred). Remember that in the beginning Ilúvatar was just pleased to see his Ainur sing.
It was the action of Melkor that caused the discord in the music, that prompted Ilúvatar to make other themes (and in the third theme of Ilúvatar alone), the Children were made, so Melkor unknowingly was indirectly responsible for the third theme of Ilúvatar and therefore the Children of Ilúvatar.
I can't make it more simple than this. Cause and effect principle. Were the Children the creation of Eru alone, yes. Would have they come out sooner or later in the music (in another scenario), i would say yes.
 
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