The Silmarillion:Ainulindalë

[Maedhros]

I think the last chord must represent the end of the world (the Dagor Dagorath, if that can be considered canon). I believe there is a point in the "Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth" where they discuss this last chord in relation to the end of Arda.

From the Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth:

'This then, I propound, was the errand of Men, not the followers, but the heirs and fulfillers of all: to heal the Marring of Arda, already foreshadowed before their devising; and to do more, as agents of the magnificence of Eru: to enlarge the Music and surpass the Vision of the World!
'For that Arda Healed shall not be Arda Unmarred, but a third thing and a greater, and yet the same. I have conversed with the Valar who were present at the making of the Music ere the being of the World began. And now I wonder: Did they hear the end of the Music? Was there not something in or beyond the final chords of Eru which, being overwhelmed thereby, they did got perceive?

As to why he stopped the vision:
'Or again, since Eru is for ever free, maybe he made no Music and showed no Vision beyond a certain point. Beyond that point we cannot see or know, until by our own roads we come there, Valar or Eldar or Men.

'As may a master in the telling of tales keep hidden the greatest moment until it comes in due course. It may be guessed at indeed, in some measure, by those of us who have listened with full heart and mind; but so the teller would wish. In no wise is the surprise and wonder of his art thus diminished, for thus we share, as it were, in his authorship. But not so, if all were told us in a preface before we entered in!'

Ilúvatar can't reveal all I guess. There is still the fact that Men will rule the world after and their paths are could only be grasped by Eru alone.
From the Published Silmarillion:

Never since have the Ainur made any music like to this music, though it has been said that a greater still shall be made before Ilúvatar by the choirs of the Ainur and the Children of Ilúvatar after the end of days. Then the themes of Ilúvatar shall be played aright, and take Being in the moment of their utterance, for all shall then understand fully his intent in their part, and each shall know the comprehension of each, and Ilúvatar shall give to their thoughts the secret fire, being well pleased.

From the Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth:

'And then suddenly I beheld as a vision Arda Remade; and there the Eldar completed but not ended could abide in the present for ever, and there walk, maybe, with the Children of Men, their deliverers, and sing to them such songs as, even in the Bliss beyond bliss, should make the green valleys ring and the everlasting mountain-tops to throb like harps.'

This is an interpretation of Finrod about the music at the end of days. Very interesting to note that they thought that men were going to be very important and in fact deliver them from "death" of Arda.
From the Letters 212:

The Ainur took part in the making of the world as 'sub-creators': in various degrees, after this fashion. They interpreted according to their powers, and completed in detail, the Design propounded to them by the One. This was propounded first in musical or abstract form, and then in an 'historical vision'. In the first interpretation, the vast Music of the Ainur, Melkor introduced alterations, not interpretations of the mind of the One, and great discord arose. The One then presented this 'Music', including the apparent discords, as a visible 'history'

So, WHY MUSIC?

Indeed, that is the basic question of the Ainulindalë
This is what I have gathered from the JRRT:
Letters 260:

I have little musical knowledge. Though I come of a musical family, owing to defects of education and opportunity as an orphan, such music as was in me was submerged (until I married a musician), or transformed into linguistic terms. Music gives me great pleasure and sometimes inspiration, but I remain in the position in reverse of one who likes to read or hear poetry but knows little of its technique or tradition, or of linguistic structure.

I think that we can say that he transformed the music of the Ainur as the beginning of one of the great stories ever told.

 

[Lhunithiliel]

Oh, Master of the quotes!!!
How is it that you ALWAYS find the right extract to help others out?!

What you have said I suspected, for I have not yet come to the letters and there are so many pieces if information to be still gathered to complete the puzzle called "Tolkien" !

 

[Grond]

Re: Sil:Ainulindalë

Okay, I've read this thread from start to finish and before I get into the meat of the discussion, I will lay out my own beliefs concerning the insightful questions propounded by Maedhros.

1. Why was Melkor (being the most powerful of the Ainur), the one who most wanted to do things by his own thought? Is it a reality in the Silmarillion that the most powerful beings are flawed in a way that they tend to curve to evil?

I don't think we need to go any further than the first few paragraphs to find the easiest answer to this question.

To Melkor among the Ainur had been given the greatest gifts of power and knowledge, and he had a share in all the gifts of his brethren. He had gone often alone into the void, and he was impatient of its emptiness. Yet he found not the Fire, for it is with Ilúvatar. But being alone he had begun t conceive thoughts of his own unlike those of his brethren.

Melkor had already taken a different path and that indicates to me that his inner core, while the greatest, is also the most inquisitive and searching. All of the other Ainur seem content to await Eru's instructions whereas Melkor seems to want to be Eru. I have always thought that the Ainur's characteristics were decided by what "gifts" Eru bestowed upon them when they were born of His mind. Melkor received the greatest power and hence also received the greatest desire to create/order/direct. He wasn't evil in the beginning, he was merely a weaker image of Eru. His greatest desire was to emulate his Creator.

2. Is the Universe Predefined?

As has already been pointed out in this discussion, I think the beginning of the Universe is predefined but the ending of the Universe is still in flux. The Music is not yet finished so it is ever changing and flowing. The basic Game Plan is laid out but not all the plays are made yet and those that are made are not always executed correctly.

3. Is Melkor's shame but the beginning of his downfall? Is this the beginning of the element of Pride?

I think this is backwards. I think that the desire to create and control something of his own to be able to be Prideful of his own creation is where Melkor began his descent into shame and eventually corruption.

4. Were the Children of Ilúvatar a response to the discord of Melkor? Or was it just the fact that Ilúvatar wanted to made other beings in accord to what he knew best?

Who can say? My thoughts are that Iluvatar didn't have a blueprint for the Music. He created the Ainur (offspring of His thought) and let them compose the Music. He was the conductor. He controlled the tempo and the ebb and flow. When Melkor sought to bring discord, the Conductor brought it back in tune with His vision of the symphony. Using my theory, the Children were the result of Iluvatar composing His own concerto to complete what He had conducted with the Ainur.

I will post my opinions on 5 - 10 later today.

 

[gate7ole]

We have spoken about the role of the Children of Illuvatar in the Music, but until now, we didn’t take into account the role of the Ainur. I understand their role as this: they were the composers of the Music (though some parts were not comprehensible even to them), but Music didn’t contain them. It contained Arda and the third theme contained also the Children of Illuvatar. Which means that they were supposed to prepare Arda for the Firstborn and Secondborn. As they sang it before Illuvatar, they would afterwards create it. And since Melkor chose the road of rebellion, their first battle sang before Eru, would happen in real. The role of the Ainur couldn’t thus be disjoint from the role of the Children. There would be no reason to create a world for nobody else to live in. This is why the third theme containing the Children could not be just the response to Melkor’s discord, but a plan originally conceived by Illuvatar (probably knowing the rebellion –which the yields the question of predefinition).
The matters of Ainulindale are mostly cosmogonical and theogonical and thus only assumptions are possible.

 

[Maedhros]

This is why the third theme containing the Children could not be just the response to Melkor’s discord, but a plan originally conceived by Illuvatar (probably knowing the rebellion –which the yields the question of predefinition).

From the Published Silmarillion

And it came to pass that Ilúvatar called together all the Ainur and declared to them a mighty theme, unfolding to them things greater and more wonderful than he had yet revealed; and the glory of its beginning and the splendour of its end amazed the Ainur, so that they bowed before Ilúvatar and were silent.

It was Ilúvatar's theme from the beginning. They just played their part according to their knowledge.
Now the matter of Free Will:
Letters 153:

To conclude: having mentioned Free Will, I might say that in my myth I have used 'subcreation' in a special way (not the same as 'subcreation' as a term in criticism of art, though I tried to show allegorically how that might come to be taken up into Creation in some plane in my 'purgatorial' story Leaf by Niggle (Dublin Review 1945)) to make visible and physical the effects of Sin or misused Free Will by men. Free Will is derivative, and is.'. only operative within provided circumstances; but in order that it may exist, it is necessary that the Author should guarantee it, whatever betides : sc. when it is 'against His Will', as we say, at any rate as it appears on a finite view. He does not stop or make 'unreal' sinful acts and their consequences. So in this myth, it is 'feigned' (legitimately whether that is a feature of the real world or not) that He gave special 'sub-creative' powers to certain of His highest created beings: that is a guarantee that what they devised and made should be given the reality of Creation. Of course within limits, and of course subject to certain commands or prohibitions.

I believe that in the making of the third theme, it was the direct action of Melkor that created the Children of Ilúvatar. Melkor didn't know of their existence and by his disharmony he created something greater that he himself had thought.
From the Published Silmarillion:

And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined.'

And it proved to be true.

 

[Lhunithiliel]

It all began so:

And it came to pass that Ilúvatar called together all the Ainur and declared to them a mighty theme, unfolding to them things greater and more wonderful than he had yet revealed; and the glory of its beginning and the splendour of its end amazed the Ainur, so that they bowed before Ilúvatar and were silent.

Then Ilúvatar said to them: 'Of the theme that I have declared to you, I will now that ye make in harmony together a Great Music. And since I have kindled you with the Flame Imperishable, ye shall show forth your powers in adorning this theme, each with his own thoughts and devices, if he will. But I win sit and hearken, and be glad that through you great beauty has been wakened into song.'

When the great "concerto" had finished:

But when they were come into the Void, Ilúvatar said to them: 'Behold your Music!' And he showed to them a vision, giving to them sight where before was only hearing; arid they saw a new World made visible before them.

Every time I read this part of the story in the different sources I wonder:
> Did the Ainur actually KNOW that they were creating a new world?
It somehow seems to me that they did NOT.
> If however they knew what they were creating through their music, would they be more "careful" and "specific" in their solos ?

 

[Elu Thingol]

Posted by Maedhros
I believe that in the making of the third theme, it was the direct action of Melkor that created the Children of Ilúvatar. Melkor didn't know of their existence and by his disharmony he created something greater that he himself had thought.

Actually it states in the Silmarillion that none of the Ainur had anything to do with the creation of the Children of Iluvatar. There are his creation alone.

"For the Children of Iluvatar were conceived by him alone; and they came with the third theme, and were not in the theme which Iluvatar propounded at the beginning, and none of the Ainur had part in their making."

So in essence, Iluvatar already had the theme prepared, and the children were already created in his mind. Melkor had nothing to do with the children's creation whatsoever.

 

[Maedhros]

Music of the Ainur

This are interesting things that I got out of the Music of the Ainur from BOLT 1.

Thereafter he fashioned them dwellings in the void, and dwelt among them, teaching them all manner of things, and the greatest of these was music.

Made them dwellings in the Void? Interesting. Notice the inference that something was made before the Music.

Then said Ilúvatar: "The story that I have laid before you, and that great region of beauty that I have described unto you as the place where all that history might be unfolded and enacted, is related only as it were in outline. I have not filled all the empty spaces, neither have I recounted to you all the adornments and things of loveliness and delicacy whereof my mind is full.

Extremely familiar with the Published Silmarillon.

Never was there before, nor has there been since, such a music of immeasurable vastness of splendour; though it is said that a mightier far shall be woven before the seat of Ilúvatar by the choirs of both Ainur and the sons of Men after the Great End. Then shall Ilúvatar's mightiest themes be played aright; for then Ainur and Men will know his mind and heart as well as may be, and all his intent.

Notice that he speaks of Men and not the Children of Ilúvatar. Perhaps, that is why in the Athrabeth, when Finrod says that Men have the power to make things right that Melkor perverted in the theme?

There had he nonetheless fallen to thinking deep cunning thoughts of his own, all of which he showed not even to Ilúvatar. Some of these devisings and imaginings he now wove into his music, and straightway harshness and discordancy rose about him, and many of those that played nigh him grew despondent and their music feeble, and their thoughts unfinished and unclear, while many others fell to attuning their music to his rather than to the great theme wherein they began.
In this way the mischief of Melko spread darkening the music, for those thoughts of his came from the outer blackness whither Ilúvatar had not yet turned the light of his face; and because his secret thoughts had no kinship with the beauty of Ilúvatar's design its harmonies were broken and destroyed. Yet sat Ilúvatar and hearkened till the music reached a depth of gloom and ugliness unimaginable; then did he smile sadly and raised his left hand, and immediately, though none clearly knew how, a new theme began among the clash, like and yet unlike the first, and it gathered power and sweetness. But the discord and noise that Melko had aroused started into uproar against it, and there was a war of sounds, and a clangour arose in which little could be distinguished.

Notice the detail and the emphasis in the time that Melkor spent in the Void. Did his thoughts had something to do with the fact that he was alone in the Void without the other Ainur?

Then Ilúvatar raised his right hand, and he no longer smiled but wept; and behold a third theme, and it was in no way like the others

Notice the difference with the Published Silmarillion, here Ilúvatar wept.

Thou Melko shalt see that no theme can be played save it come in the end of Ilúvatar's self, nor can any alter the music in Ilúvatar's despite. He that attempts this finds himself in the end but aiding me in devising a thing of still greater grandeur and more complex wonder: -- for lo! Through Melko have terror as fire, and sorrow like dark waters, wrath like thunder, and evil as far from my light as the depths of the uttermost of the dark places, come into the design that I laid before you. Through him has pain and misery been made in the clash of overwhelming musics; and with confusion of sound have cruelty, and ravening, and darkness, loathly mire and all putrescence of thought or thing, foul mists and violent flame, cold without mercy, been born, and death without hope. Yet is this through him and not by him; and he shall see, and ye all likewise, and even shall those beings, who must now dwell among his evil and endure through Melko misery and sorrow, terror and wickedness, declare in the end that it redoundeth only to my great glory, and doth but make the theme more worth the hearing, Life more worth the living, and the World so much the more wonderful and marvellous, that of all the deeds of Ilúvatar it shall be called his mightiest and his loveliest."

Notice the quality in the detail, and the clarity in which it is implied that Arda Reborn or Remade is going to be better than Arda Unmarred.

but of all these water was held the fairest and most goodly and most greatly praised. Indeed there liveth still in water a deeper echo of the Music of the Ainur than in any substance else that is in the world, and at this latest day many of the Sons of Men will hearken unsatedly to the voice of the Sea and long for they know not what.

Again the importance of Water, and the fact that the one most responsible for it, was the one who was most instructed by Ilúvatar in the art of Music.

Knowing all their hearts, still did Ilúvatar grant the desire of the Ainur, nor is it said he was grieved thereat.

This is missing from the Published Silmarillion. Ilúvatar grieved from the departing of some of his Ainur.
Che pensi tu?

 

[gate7ole]

The quotes from BOLT 1 are very interesting, but we should be careful not to take everything as absolute, since they belong to a very early period of Tolkien’s thought and many statements may not actually stand in the revised Silamrillion.

-The dwellings of the Valar may not exist but the dwelling of Illuvatar is reffered to the published Silmarillion:

and the places of the dwelling of Ilúvatar were filled to overflowing, and the music and the echo of the music went out into the Void, and it was not void.

But I think we shouldn’t take it literally. The Music was the inaugural moment of creation of Ea and this doesn’t mean that nothing else was created before the Music.

-Melkor’s walks in the void alone, imply a reason for his afterward rebellion. Also consider this quote:

and it seemed to him that Ilúvatar took no thought for the Void, and he was impatient of its emptiness

Melkor’s initial purpose was creation and filling of the void. That’s a reason to believe that Melkor was in the beginning good and his long walks in the void where the light of Illuvatar was absent darkened his heart. Thus, we can associate his rebellion not as an outcome of his shame, but as a darkening of his heart in the void.

-That Illuvatar wept and that he grieved for the departure of some Ainur, I think that they belong to the early thoughts of Tolkien and were abandoned because they don’t fit in the cosmological theory. Illuvatar should have foreknown the actions of the Ainur and in fact this had to be his plan. Thus, any such behavior by him is, I think, not coherent.

-Now, the big question of the Second Music, the fact that only Men will join the Ainur in its making, is puzzling. Let’s examine how this matter changed through the years.
In Ainulindale of BOLT 1 it is said that:

though it is said that a mightier far shall be woven before the seat of Ilúvatar by the choirs of both Ainur and the sons of Men after the Great End.
And
Yet while the Sons of Men will after the passing ofthings of a certainty join in the Second Music of the Ainur, what Illuvatar has devised for the Eldar beyond the world’s end he has not revealed even to the Valar and Melko has not discovered it.

In The Lost Road, Morgoth’s Ring and Silmarillion

though it has been said that a greater still shall be made before Ilúvatar by the choirs of both Ainur and the Children of Illuvatar after the end of days.
And
Yet it is said that the Sons of Men will join join in the Second Music of the Ainur; whereas Ilúvatar has hot revealed what he purposes for the Elves after the World's end, and Melkor has not discovered it.

The first part of each quote is in Ainulindale and the second was placed afterwards to the first chapter of Silmarillion proper.
This means that while the second part was always the same, that is Men will join the Valar in the Second Music, while the Elves don’t know their future, the first part was puzzlingly correct in the early passages and wrong in the later! I can’t of course explain this, but I think it is certain that the Elves will NOT take part in the Second Music.
Why is that? Is it that their role ends with the Final Battle as Finrod fears? Are they so bound to Arda that they have no existence outside of it? I don’t know but I’m sure that their role cannot end anywhere, since fea(soul) is believed to be immortal regardless of the possibility that it is bound to a place.
Having no sources to prove anything more, only imagination can confine us. So, my speculation is that since the Elves are so bound to Arda, it will not be destroyed after the Final Battle, but remade (somewhere said with the aid of the Dwarves) without the need of any Music. There they will live happily forever. Men on the other hand, will join the Ainur in a mightier Second Song, where their own habitation will be created. Of course, this means the sundering of the two races (and Elrond will not meet Arwen again). Another possibility is that the Second Music will not contain a new earth, but something else (here my imagination fails) and Men will rejoin Elves in Arda Remade and live together forever.

 

[Maedhros]

Actually it states in the Silmarillion that none of the Ainur had anything to do with the creation of the Children of Iluvatar. There are his creation alone.
So in essence, Iluvatar already had the theme prepared, and the children were already created in his mind. Melkor had nothing to do with the children's creation whatsoever.

Melkor had to do with the Creation of the Children of Ilúvatar in the fact that by his discords in the music, Ilúvatar to counter him made the third theme in which the Children of Ilúvatar came into being.

So, my speculation is that since the Elves are so bound to Arda, it will not be destroyed after the Final Battle, but remade (somewhere said with the aid of the Dwarves) without the need of any Music. There they will live happily forever. Men on the other hand, will join the Ainur in a mightier Second Song, where their own habitation will be created. Of course, this means the sundering of the two races (and Elrond will not meet Arwen again). Another possibility is that the Second Music will not contain a new earth, but something else (here my imagination fails) and Men will rejoin Elves in Arda Remade and live together forever.

I believe that both the Children of Ilúvatar will be involved in the making of the Music as stated by the Published Silmarillion, and a new Arda Remade will be better than the first one.

 

[Elu Thingol]

Posted by Maedhros
Melkor had to do with the Creation of the Children of Ilúvatar in the fact that by his discords in the music, Ilúvatar to counter him made the third theme in which the Children of Ilúvatar came into being.

Again I post my quote, which you failed to respond to.

"For the Children of Iluvatar were conceived by him alone; and they came with the third theme, and were not in the theme which Iluvatar propounded at the beginning, and none of the Ainur had part in their making."

 

[gate7ole]

Originally posted by Maedhros
I believe that both the Children of Ilúvatar will be involved in the making of the Music as stated by the Published Silmarillion, and a new Arda Remade will be better than the first one.

From the published Silmarillion we read:

Yet of old the Valar declared to the Elves in Valinor that Men shall
join in the Second Music of the Ainur; whereas Ilúvatar has not revealed what he purposes for the Elves after the World's end, and Melkor has not discovered it

This contradicts the passage of Ainulindale of the same book which says that both races will join in the Second Music. We can't have certain knowledge of what Tolkien thought about. So, I retain my opinion of my previous post.

 

[Maedhros]

Again I post my quote, which you failed to respond to.

I did respond, but I will try and make it more obvious.
From the Published Silmarillion

In the midst of this strife, whereat the halls of Ilúvatar shook and a tremor ran out into the silences yet unmoved, Ilúvatar arose a third time, and his face was terrible to behold. Then he raised up both his hands, and in one chord, deeper than the Abyss, higher than the Firmament, piercing as the light of the eye of Ilúvatar, the Music ceased.

And what was that strife and who cause it? Melkor. Therefore my statement:

Melkor had to do with the Creation of the Children of Ilúvatar in the fact that by his discords in the music, Ilúvatar to counter him made the third theme in which the Children of Ilúvatar came into being.

He was therefore making the statement of Ilúvatar true.

Then Ilúvatar spoke, and he said: 'Mighty are the Ainur, and mightiest among them is Melkor; but that he may know, and all the Ainur, that I am Ilúvatar, those things that ye have sung, I will show them forth, that ye may see what ye have done. And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined.'

Had Melkor imagined the Children of Ilúvatar, No. His dischords were met by a new theme of Ilúvatar that created them. I didn't say that he created them, I do say that it was because of his actions in the previous themes that caused Ilúvatar to make a third theme in which the Children of Ilúvatar were created.

This contradicts the passage of Ainulindale which says that both races will join in the Second Music. We can't have certain knowledge of what Tolkien thought about. So, I retain my opinion of my previous post.

From Chapter 1 of the Published Silmarillion

Yet of old the Valar declared to the Elves in Valinor that Men shall join in the Second Music of the Ainur; whereas Ilúvatar has hot revealed what he purposes for the Elves after the World's end, and Melkor has not discovered it.

From the Ainulindalë:

But for a long while they sang only each alone, or but few together, while the rest hearkened; for each comprehended only that part of me mind of Ilúvatar from which he came

This is not a contradiction. The Valar are not all knowing, only Ilúvatar is. The knowledge of the Ainur (Valar) is not complete, therefore it does not means that the Elves would not take part of a greater theme, it just goes to shows that they simply don't know. I believe this to be part of Ilúvatar's plan. He didn't tell Men what happened after their deaths, he also didn't tell neither Valar nor Elves what happened after the "End of Arda." (regarding elves) I will go forth with the first statement in the Ainulindalë and believe that it will be the Children of Ilúvatar, not only men who would take part in this.
This is I believe the reason that Finrod feels so ackward in the Athrabeth when speaking about the end of Arda.

 

[Elu Thingol]

Posted by Maedhros
I didn't say that he created them, I do say that it was because of his actions in the previous themes that caused Ilúvatar to make a third theme in which the Children of Ilúvatar were created.

No, it was not Melkors actions which caused Iluvatar to create a third them in which the children were created. The children had been previously thought out and planned as we can clearly see in the following quote

"And then they saw with amazement the coming of the Children of Iluvatar, and the habitation that was prepared for them; and they perceived that they themselves in the labour of their music had been busy with the preparation of this dwelling, and yet knew not that it had any purpose beyond its own beauty."

As is clearly pointed out by the passage Arda was made for the Children of Iluvatar. When Melkor began his discord Iluvatar didn't suddenly decide to create his children. Obviously they were preconcieved before the music even began. Now this can mean two things. Either Iluvatar new that Melkor would we rebel, and in knowing this planned to use his rebellion to create the children. This idea is supported by the following

Then Ilúvatar spoke, and he said: 'Mighty are the Ainur, and mightiest among them is Melkor; but that he may know, and all the Ainur, that I am Ilúvatar, those things that ye have sung, I will show them forth, that ye may see what ye have done. And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined.'

or Iluvatar's music alone created the children and he did not know that Melkor would rebel. And Melkor's music simply did not change the planned outcome. This idea is supported by the following

"For the Children of Iluvatar were conceived by him alone; and they came with the third theme, and were not in the theme which Iluvatar propounded at the beginning, and none of the Ainur had part in their making."

I tend to lean towards the former simply because it clearly states that no Ainur had any part to play in the making of Iluvatar's children. Now if Melkor's rebellion was part of the making of the children then this quote would be contradicted.

 

[Maedhros]

From the Ainulindalë

But now Ilúvatar sat and hearkened, and for a great while it seemed good to him, for in the music there were no flaws. But as the theme progressed, it came into the heart of Melkor to interweave matters of his own imagining that were not in accord with the theme of Ilúvatar, for he sought therein to increase the power and glory of the part assigned to himself.

Earlier Ilúvatar says:

Then Ilúvatar said to them: 'Of the theme that I have declared to you, I will now that ye make in harmony together a Great Music. And since I have kindled you with the Flame Imperishable, ye shall show forth your powers in adorning this theme, each with his own thoughts and devices, if he will. But I win sit and hearken, and be glad that through you great beauty has been wakened into song.'

The question is why did Ilúvatar interfere in the themes himself?

Then Ilúvatar arose, and the Ainur perceived that he smiled; and he lifted up his left hand, and a new theme began amid the storm, like and yet unlike to the former theme, and it gathered power and had new beauty. But the discord of Melkor rose in uproar and contended with it, and again there was a war of sound more violent than before, until many of the Ainur were dismayed and sang no longer, and Melkor had the mastery. Then again Ilúvatar arose, and the Ainur perceived that his countenance was stern; and he lifted up his right hand, and behold! a third theme grew amid the confusion, and it was unlike the others. For it seemed at first soft and sweet, a mere rippling of gentle sounds in delicate melodies; but it could not be quenched, and it took to itself power and profundity. And it seemed at last that there were two musics progressing at one time before the seat of Ilúvatar, and they were utterly at variance. The one was deep and wide and beautiful, but slow and blended with an immeasurable sorrow, from which its beauty chiefly came. The other had now achieved a unity of its own; but it was loud, and vain, and endlessly repeated; and it had little harmony, but rather a clamorous unison as of many trumpets braying upon a few notes. And it essayed to drown the other music by the violence of its voice, but it seemed that its most triumphant notes were taken by the other and woven into its own solemn pattern.
In the midst of this strife, whereat the halls of Ilúvatar shook and a tremor ran out into the silences yet unmoved, Ilúvatar arose a third time, and his face was terrible to behold. Then he raised up both his hands, and in one chord, deeper than the Abyss, higher than the Firmament, piercing as the light of the eye of Ilúvatar, the Music ceased.

Ilúvatar's interventions in the music were made to counter those introduced by Melkor. The fact that the third theme made by Ilúvatar was made to counter him proves that as taken from this passages. It was the indirect action of Melkor to introduce his "ideas" into the music that caused the direct intervention of Ilúvatar.

As is clearly pointed out by the passage Arda was made for the Children of Iluvatar. When Melkor began his discord Iluvatar didn't suddenly decide to create his children. Obviously they were preconcieved before the music even began. Now this can mean two things. Either Iluvatar new that Melkor would we rebel, and in knowing this planned to use his rebellion to create the children.

Yet the passage that you quote comes later in the text. The Ainur had no knowlegde of the coming of the Children of Ilúvatar. If Melkor hadn't put his own thoughts into the music then perhaps Ilúvatar wouldn't have had to intervene himself.

or Iluvatar's music alone created the children and he did not know that Melkor would rebel. And Melkor's music simply did not change the planned outcome.

Depends on the free will really.

I tend to lean towards the former simply because it clearly states that no Ainur had any part to play in the making of Iluvatar's children. Now if Melkor's rebellion was part of the making of the children then this quote would be contradicted.

Not really, the quote says that it was Ilúvatar's theme that created the Children of Ilúvatar. The Ainur had no direct part in that music and therefore had no direct intervention in their creation, yet it was Melkor's "thoughts" in the music that caused the direct intervention of Ilúvatar and in one of those interventions (Third Theme), the Children of Ilúvatar were created. If Melkor hadn't intervened, then perhaps the outcome would have been different or it could have been similar, who could know?

 

[Confusticated]

What about the chance that Iluvatar was planning from the start to have men in his world, but he decided later on during the music to include the elves. The fact that the firstborn do not leave the world like men do might be one piece of information that could help support this idea. I see what Meadhros says about Iluvatar creating the children in response to Melkor's discord and I think that could be true but I see no proof.
Also, when the Ainur saw the vision of the children of Iluvatar they thought that they had been preparing for this all along. Maybe they only prepared for men. Or maybe only for the elves.


Anybody have anything to add?

 

[Elu Thingol]

Posted by Maedhros
Yet the passage that you quote comes later in the text. The Ainur had no knowlegde of the coming of the Children of Ilúvatar. If Melkor hadn't put his own thoughts into the music then perhaps Ilúvatar wouldn't have had to intervene himself.

What you are saying is that if Melkor had not tried to mess things up then the Children might never have been created. I disagree again from the following quote we see that Arda was indeed created for the children.

"...and yet knew not that it had any purpose beyond its own beauty."

As we can see Arda had a purpose beyond its beauty, which was to house the Children of Iluvatar. You are correct in saying that the Ainur had no knowlege of the coming of the children. This is simply because they are the ones which are creating the world for the Children to live in. Not the ones creating the Children themselves. Obviously Iluvatar knew all along that the Children would be living on Arda. Melkor's theme simply challenged Iluvatar's it did not change it nor did it cause it.

 

[Maedhros]

What you are saying is that if Melkor had not tried to mess things up then the Children might never have been created.

It really annoys me when people put words that I don't say. The Children were probably would have been created in a different way, or the same, but in the way it happened, they were created in a theme to counter Melkor. I can't put it any simpler than that. It seems that I have hit a brick wall with Elu Thingol.

I see what Meadhros says about Iluvatar creating the children in response to Melkor's discord and I think that could be true but I see no proof.

At least someone can grasp what I'm trying to say.Ilúvatar introduced the theme in which the Children of Ilúvatar were created to counter those of Melkor's. If Melkor hadn't introduced his "discords" then they would have been introduced in a different way.

Melkor's theme simply challenged Iluvatar's it did not change it nor did it cause it.

Melkor's theme made Ilúvatar introduce his third theme in which the Children were created. Plain and simple. If not, then the Children more probably would have been introduced in another way.

 

[Elu Thingol]

Posted by Maedhros
Melkor's theme made Ilúvatar introduce his third theme in which the Children were created. Plain and simple. If not, then the Children more probably would have been introduced in another way.

What other way? Melkor did not force Ilúvatar to create the theme. He may have forced him to introduce the theme. I don't see what you mean by another way you will have to be more specific before I can respond.

I don't want to try and have to read your mind, you just have to explain your thoughts better

 

[Maedhros]

Last Try (Actual Ainulindalë scenario):
Cause
A. Music being played.
B. Melkor discord comes in.
Effect
C. Ilúvatar responds by adding his themes.
D. In Ilúvatar third theme the Children of Ilúvatar were made by him.

In this scenario, Ilúvatar's theme was in respond (effect) of the discords of Melkor (cause). If Melkor's discords were not in place, then who knows how the actual themes would have been played out (Arda Unmarred). Remember that in the beginning Ilúvatar was just pleased to see his Ainur sing.
It was the action of Melkor that caused the discord in the music, that prompted Ilúvatar to make other themes (and in the third theme of Ilúvatar alone), the Children were made, so Melkor unknowingly was indirectly responsible for the third theme of Ilúvatar and therefore the Children of Ilúvatar.
I can't make it more simple than this. Cause and effect principle. Were the Children the creation of Eru alone, yes. Would have they come out sooner or later in the music (in another scenario), i would say yes.