Don't know.Even if, Iluvatar could create a different theme that would create the Children, why would he do it? What would be the point of creating a different theme?
Posted by Maedhros
Don't know.
I have posted the appropiate quote in a previous posts regarding this.It will be seen that the great theme that Ilúvatar propounded to the Ainur was originally made somewhat more explicit ('The story that I have laid before you,' p.50), and that the words of Ilúvatar to the Ainur at the end of the Music contained a long declaration of what Melko had brought about, of what he had introduced into the world's history (p. 52). But by far the most important difference is that in the early form the Ainur's first sight of the World was in its actuality ('even now the world unfolds and its history begins', p. 53), not as a Vision that was taken away from them and only given existence in the words of Ilúvatar: Eä! Let these things Be! (The Silmarillion p. 20).
In this 'Tale', also, many specific features of less general import make their appearance; and many of them were to survive. Manwë, called 'lord of Gods and Elves and Men', is surnamed Súlimo, 'ruler of the airs and wind', he is clad in sapphires, and hawks of penetrating sight fly from his dwelling on Taniquetil (The Silmarillion p. 40); he loves especially the Teleri (the later Vanyar), and from him they received their gifts of poetry and song; and his spouse is Varda, Queen of the Stars.
Interesting to note the idea of the Children of the Valar. Even Melko had children, Gothmog is often refered in Lost Tales as the son of Melko.Other divine beings now appear. Manwë and Varda have offspring, Fionwë-Úrion and Erinti. Erinti later became Ilmarë 'handmaid of Varda' (The Silmarillion p. 30), but nothing was ever told of her (see p. 227). Fionwë, his name long afterwards changed to Eonwë, endured to become the Herald of Manwë, when the idea of 'the Children of the Valar' was abandoned. Beings subordinate to Ulmo, Salmar, Ossë, and Ónen (later Uinen) appear; though these all survived in the pantheon, the conception of Maiar did not emerge for many years, and Ossë was long numbered among the Valar. The Valar are here referred to as 'Gods' (indeed when Eriol asked 'are they the Gods?' Lindo replied that they were, p. 41), and this usage survived until far on in the development of the mythology.
Hmmmmm. And it makes me wonder.Early in the text just given (p. 50) occurs the sentence: 'It is said that a mightier [music] far shall be woven before the seat of Ilúvatar by the choirs of both Ainur and the sons of Men after the Great End', and in the concluding sentence of the text: 'Yet while the sons of Men will after the passing of things of a certainty join in the Second Music of the Ainur, what Ilúvatar has devised for the Eldar beyond the world's end he has not revealed even to the Valar, and Melko ? has not discovered it.' Now in the first revision of the Ainulindalë (which dates from the 1930s) the first of these sentences was changed to read: '... by the choirs of the Ainur and the Children of Ilúvatar after the end of days', whereas the second remained, in this essential, unchanged. This remained the case right through to the final version. It is possible that the change in the first passage was unintentional, the substitution of another common phrase, and that this was never subsequently picked up. However, in the published work (pp. 15, 42) I left the two passages as they stand.
The vision unfolded almost the complete history of Arda, while the actual world created where the Ainur descended was only the beginning of this history.Originally posted by gate7ole
I agree Confusticated, but at the earlier versions the vision was showing the actual world being created. The later versions complicated the narrative and we had a vision first, then it ceased and then the world was created. Tolkien moved the creation of the world from before the vision to after it. With this difference, nothing changes related to the meaning of the vision. Both times it shows the "demo" of Arda. And both times the Valar have to enter Arda and labour hard to tranform it.
I wonder if there is any meaning to this change, or just different narrative structure.
1)The first versions of Ainulindale had no vision, but Arda was created instantly.I believe it is only a change of structure in the narrative. I can't think of any reason why Iluvatar had to show them first a vision and then say "Ea". I seems more dramatic. If anyone else can explain this change better...
I believe Tolkien changed the text to stress the metaphysical notion of coming into being, of coming into existence, and its place within the context of creation which is the subject of the Ainulindale. The music was sung and heard, and the Ainur were shown a vision, but the world was not in actual existence yet outside the mind of Illuvatar, Who is God, Esse Subsistens. He, being the First Cause (another Thomistic notion) needed to bring the things into actual existence. The difference between the plan for the world, which the Ainur had power to make (the world then in potency), and the actualized world, which only Eru could accomplish/bring into actual being, is what is being stressed in that passage by the addition of the "Ea" part.quote from gate7ole “I can't think of any reason why Iluvatar had to show them first a vision and then say ‘Ea’.”
Yet, let me offer to your comment my question. WHY MUSIC? I have never before read any legend concerning the creation of the world where it was done by MUSIC! Actually, this was precisely that I liked most of all in the Silm. and that made me look closer into Tolkien art - CREATION THROUGH MUSIC!I have later seen that Tolkien introduces music everywhere - most of his characters express themselves through songs, music is heard from the flowing rivers and streams, from the falling rain, in the woods, in the high mountains. The WHOLE world of Arda is filled with MUSIC.So, WHY MUSIC?
So I think question 5 has been answered beyond a doubt.Many of the Ainur did enter into it, and must bide in it till the End, being involved in Time, the series of events that complete it. These were the Valar, and their lesser attendants. They were those who had 'fallen in love' with the vision, and no doubt, were those who had played the most 'sub-creative' (or as we might say 'artistic') part in the Music.
It was because of their love of Eä, and because of the pan they had played in its making, that they wished to, and could, incarnate themselves in visible physical forms..
and also this..Now the Valar took to themselves shape and hue; and because they were drawn into the World by love of the Children of Ilúvatar..
So it was love of the vision and having played the biggest parts in the music which determined who of the Ainur became the Valar and the Maiar....and none of the Ainur had part in their making. Therefore when they beheld them, the more did they love them...
this sounds good to me...Posted by Elennainie
I would greatly appreciate any thoughts on what I've said.
Originally posted by Elennainie
The immateriality of the music was well suited to, and corresponded to, the immateriality of the world that, at that moment, only existed in thought.
Then the voices of the Ainur, like unto harps and lutes, and pipes and trumpets, and viols and organs, and like unto countless choirs singing with words....and a sound arose of endless interchanging melodies woven in harmony
Was he only talking only about the beauty of the song here, or the beauty of the world which would be created?I will sit and hearken, and be glad that through you great beauty has been wakened into song.
So they could not have read his thoughts concerning the coming of the material world."For each comprehended only that part of the mind of Iluvatar from which he came..."
The way I see it he was certainly talking about the music. Not the world.Was he only talking only about the beauty of the song here, or the beauty of the world which would be created?
It's not a question of "wrong or right", you know... I just wondered if they would sort of "refine" even more their music knowing that by this the world they were creating would become their own dwelling and that of the Children?Originally posted by ithrynluin
Lhun,
of what should they have been more careful exactly?
Did THEY do something wrong or was it Melko?
Music at it's finest.The Celts of old believed that the world was upheld and sustained
by a single all-embracing melody: Oran Môr, they called it, the Great
Music, and all creation was part of it. perhaps this is why Celtic
music possesses the power to move us in unexpected ways - it touches
that place deep in our hearts where legends still live, and we hear
again the strains of the Ancient Song. (Stephen R. Lawhead, 1996)
As Told in Latin verse by OvidBefore the sea and lands and the sky that covers everything existed, the appearance of nature in the entire universe was the same. This has been called Chaos, an unformed mass without order, and it was not anything except an inactive weight and the inharmonious seed of things gathered in one place and loosely joined together. Up to that time, there was no Titan [the sun] spreading light over the world, and Phoebe [the moon] did not rise with new crescent horns, nor did the earth hang balanced by its own weight in the air flowing around it, nor had Amphitrite [the sea] strechted out her arms along the long borders of the land.
And although there was in existence not only land but sea and air, nevertheless the land was not firm, the water could not be swum in, the air lacked light. Nothing kept its proper shape.
One of the gods, or a quiet kindly nature, broke up this disorder, for he separated the lands from the sky and the seas from the lands and divided the clear sky from the dense air. After he had freed them and had removed them from the blind mass, he bound each element he had separated in its proper place in harmonious peace.
Of course the similarity is great as far as the creation of the "known" world is concerned.One of the gods, or a quiet kindly nature, broke up this disorder, for he separated the lands from the sky and the seas from the lands and divided the clear sky from the dense air
P.S. It is noticeable that in Hesiod's version, the events occurred in an entirely different fashion.
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Are you happy to accept cookies and these technologies?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Are you happy to accept cookies and these technologies?