The Silmarillion:Ainulindalë

[Maedhros]

Even if, Iluvatar could create a different theme that would create the Children, why would he do it? What would be the point of creating a different theme?

Don't know.
I will post other things about the Additional readings, so that we can compare them to those of the Published Sil.

 

[Elu Thingol]

Posted by Maedhros
Don't know.

I rest my case

 

[Maedhros]

Diferences between BOLT1 and P. Sil.

As I did in a previous post, I would like to recall some differences between the Music of the Ainur in the Bolt 1 and the one in the Published Silmarillion:
From the Comentaries of the Music of the Ainur:

It will be seen that the great theme that Ilúvatar propounded to the Ainur was originally made somewhat more explicit ('The story that I have laid before you,' p.50), and that the words of Ilúvatar to the Ainur at the end of the Music contained a long declaration of what Melko had brought about, of what he had introduced into the world's history (p. 52). But by far the most important difference is that in the early form the Ainur's first sight of the World was in its actuality ('even now the world unfolds and its history begins', p. 53), not as a Vision that was taken away from them and only given existence in the words of Ilúvatar: Eä! Let these things Be! (The Silmarillion p. 20).

I have posted the appropiate quote in a previous posts regarding this.

In this 'Tale', also, many specific features of less general import make their appearance; and many of them were to survive. Manwë, called 'lord of Gods and Elves and Men', is surnamed Súlimo, 'ruler of the airs and wind', he is clad in sapphires, and hawks of penetrating sight fly from his dwelling on Taniquetil (The Silmarillion p. 40); he loves especially the Teleri (the later Vanyar), and from him they received their gifts of poetry and song; and his spouse is Varda, Queen of the Stars.

Other divine beings now appear. Manwë and Varda have offspring, Fionwë-Úrion and Erinti. Erinti later became Ilmarë 'handmaid of Varda' (The Silmarillion p. 30), but nothing was ever told of her (see p. 227). Fionwë, his name long afterwards changed to Eonwë, endured to become the Herald of Manwë, when the idea of 'the Children of the Valar' was abandoned. Beings subordinate to Ulmo, Salmar, Ossë, and Ónen (later Uinen) appear; though these all survived in the pantheon, the conception of Maiar did not emerge for many years, and Ossë was long numbered among the Valar. The Valar are here referred to as 'Gods' (indeed when Eriol asked 'are they the Gods?' Lindo replied that they were, p. 41), and this usage survived until far on in the development of the mythology.

Interesting to note the idea of the Children of the Valar. Even Melko had children, Gothmog is often refered in Lost Tales as the son of Melko.
This following text I find very curious:

Early in the text just given (p. 50) occurs the sentence: 'It is said that a mightier [music] far shall be woven before the seat of Ilúvatar by the choirs of both Ainur and the sons of Men after the Great End', and in the concluding sentence of the text: 'Yet while the sons of Men will after the passing of things of a certainty join in the Second Music of the Ainur, what Ilúvatar has devised for the Eldar beyond the world's end he has not revealed even to the Valar, and Melko ? has not discovered it.' Now in the first revision of the Ainulindalë (which dates from the 1930s) the first of these sentences was changed to read: '... by the choirs of the Ainur and the Children of Ilúvatar after the end of days', whereas the second remained, in this essential, unchanged. This remained the case right through to the final version. It is possible that the change in the first passage was unintentional, the substitution of another common phrase, and that this was never subsequently picked up. However, in the published work (pp. 15, 42) I left the two passages as they stand.

Hmmmmm. And it makes me wonder.

 

[gate7ole]

Re: Diferences between BOLT1 and P. Sil.

About the last thoughts of Maedhros.

1)The first versions of Ainulindale had no vision, but Arda was created instantly.
I believe it is only a change of structure in the narrative. I can't think of any reason why Iluvatar had to show them first a vision and then say "Ea". I seems more dramatic. If anyone else can explain this change better...

2)About the children of the Valar.
Wise choice from Tolkien to abandon this idea, since it resulted in some inconsistences. How would any child of the Valar, say Fionwe be placed in the mythology? He was of the order of the Valar but was born in Arda and didn't come out of it. How would we consider Fionwe? Greater than the Maiar who were direct thoughts of Iluvatar? Or just a lesser Vala. And what would the reason for the reproductive abilities of the Valar? They were guardians of Arda, their number would suffice to do the job. Only for the pleasure of parenthood? Fortunately Tolkien rejected this idea (probably for other reasons than mine).

3)About the two fates of the Elves.
Maedhros, I mentioned this matter in this thread and you rejected any incosistence. What made you change your opinion?

 

[Confusticated]

When Iluvatar showed the vision he gave sight where there was only sound before, so the Ainur were for the first time able to actually see their music. Later when the Valar went into the world they saw that it wasn't yet made, and they knew how it should look because of what they saw in the vision.
The vision is also where the Ainur first learned of the children. They loved the children when they seen them and I think this love is what caused some of them to want to go into the world; to make things good for the children.
If not for the vision, it might be strange to find Ainur to be the Valar, and once the Valar did go down into the world, they would have no ideas as to how things should look.

 

[gate7ole]

I agree Confusticated, but at the earlier versions the vision was showing the actual world being created. The later versions complicated the narrative and we had a vision first, then it ceased and then the world was created. Tolkien moved the creation of the world from before the vision to after it. With this difference, nothing changes related to the meaning of the vision. Both times it shows the "demo" of Arda. And both times the Valar have to enter Arda and labour hard to tranform it.
I wonder if there is any meaning to this change, or just different narrative structure.

 

[Maedhros]

3)About the two fates of the Elves.
Maedhros, I mentioned this matter in this thread and you rejected any incosistence. What made you change your opinion?
I haven't changed my mind, it just makes me wonder, what if the change was not intended as was simply a mere overlook.

 

[Lhunithiliel]

Originally posted by gate7ole
I agree Confusticated, but at the earlier versions the vision was showing the actual world being created. The later versions complicated the narrative and we had a vision first, then it ceased and then the world was created. Tolkien moved the creation of the world from before the vision to after it. With this difference, nothing changes related to the meaning of the vision. Both times it shows the "demo" of Arda. And both times the Valar have to enter Arda and labour hard to tranform it.
I wonder if there is any meaning to this change, or just different narrative structure.

The vision unfolded almost the complete history of Arda, while the actual world created where the Ainur descended was only the beginning of this history.
I think this change was done because if the Ainur had to enter a ready-made world then the reader would have not had the unique opportunity of reading one of the most beautiful tales - of the beginning of days and how everything was created, how it was firste marred...etc.
This is, IMHO, the reason why Illuvatar first show a vision and only then created the real world.

 

[Elennainie]

I have spent the last two hours reading, as thoughtfully as I am able, your impressive discussion. And, as Lhunithiliel, I have never posted in a reading-discussion before. That said, I would like to respond only to the few things about which I feel I can contribute.

1. from gate7ole:

1)The first versions of Ainulindale had no vision, but Arda was created instantly.I believe it is only a change of structure in the narrative. I can't think of any reason why Iluvatar had to show them first a vision and then say "Ea". I seems more dramatic. If anyone else can explain this change better...

Showing them the vision first, and then pronouncing “Ea! Let these things Be!” was more dramatic, as gate7ole has said, but I believe this drama had a purpose, which was to highlight the importance of the metaphysical concept of existence. Tolkien’s education most likely included a study of Thomistic philosophy. He would have been familiar with the Thomistic and Aristotelian concept of existence as the first, or most important, cause in creation. Indeed God Himself is Esse Subsistens, or subsistent Being, Being Itself in Thomistic philosophy. (I believe his education would have included Thomistic philosophy, since this philosophy is fundamental in Catholic education, and he attended Catholic school (St. Phillip’s) and must have received some instruction by the Catholic priest who was his guardian. Regardless, his classical school education surely would have included Aristotle, and Aristotle has a similar notion of the importance of the primary cause, or existence.) Note how the word “Be” is capitalized in “Ea! Let these things Be”, as is the word “Being” in the quote Maedhros posted:

"From the Published Silmarillion:
quote:

Never since have the Ainur made any music like to this music, though it has been said that a greater still shall be made before Ilúvatar by the choirs of the Ainur and the Children of Ilúvatar after the end of days. Then the themes of Ilúvatar shall be played aright, and take Being in the moment of their utterance, for all shall then understand fully his intent in their part, and each shall know the comprehension of each, and Ilúvatar shall give to their thoughts the secret fire, being well pleased."

quote from gate7ole “I can't think of any reason why Iluvatar had to show them first a vision and then say ‘Ea’.”

I believe Tolkien changed the text to stress the metaphysical notion of coming into being, of coming into existence, and its place within the context of creation which is the subject of the Ainulindale. The music was sung and heard, and the Ainur were shown a vision, but the world was not in actual existence yet outside the mind of Illuvatar, Who is God, Esse Subsistens. He, being the First Cause (another Thomistic notion) needed to bring the things into actual existence. The difference between the plan for the world, which the Ainur had power to make (the world then in potency), and the actualized world, which only Eru could accomplish/bring into actual being, is what is being stressed in that passage by the addition of the "Ea" part.

2. from Lhunithiliel:

Yet, let me offer to your comment my question. WHY MUSIC? I have never before read any legend concerning the creation of the world where it was done by MUSIC! Actually, this was precisely that I liked most of all in the Silm. and that made me look closer into Tolkien art - CREATION THROUGH MUSIC!I have later seen that Tolkien introduces music everywhere - most of his characters express themselves through songs, music is heard from the flowing rivers and streams, from the falling rain, in the woods, in the high mountains. The WHOLE world of Arda is filled with MUSIC.So, WHY MUSIC?

What Confusticated said in reply sounds reasonable to me. I would like to add the speculation that, in addition to Tolkien having an affinity for music, perhaps it was the immateriality of music that was appealing as well. Music is more spiritual and less material (you can’t touch it), and, at that point in the story when the singing was taking place, the world hadn’t come into material being yet. The immateriality of the music was well suited to, and corresponded to, the immateriality of the world that, at that moment, only existed in thought.

I would also like to add that I too thought Tolkien using music for creation in Ainulindale was genius, and that I am glad to be in a place where other people were as touched by it as I was.

I would greatly appreciate any thoughts on what I've said.

 

[Confusticated]

5. What made some Ainur more entralled to the idea of going to Arda and so to join themselves with the fate of the world?
I know that some of us (including myself) answered to this that it were perhaps those Ainur who played the bigger parts in the music which wanted to go into Arda. Also, that it was for love of the children of Iluvatar that they wanted to go into Arda.

I was just scanning through the Letters...which I haven't read yet and found this...

Many of the Ainur did enter into it, and must bide in it till the End, being involved in Time, the series of events that complete it. These were the Valar, and their lesser attendants. They were those who had 'fallen in love' with the vision, and no doubt, were those who had played the most 'sub-creative' (or as we might say 'artistic') part in the Music.
It was because of their love of Eä, and because of the pan they had played in its making, that they wished to, and could, incarnate themselves in visible physical forms..

So I think question 5 has been answered beyond a doubt.
Though is does not name the children in specific as I did, it must have been a factor.
This quote from The Silmarillion:

Now the Valar took to themselves shape and hue; and because they were drawn into the World by love of the Children of Ilúvatar..

and also this..

...and none of the Ainur had part in their making. Therefore when they beheld them, the more did they love them...

So it was love of the vision and having played the biggest parts in the music which determined who of the Ainur became the Valar and the Maiar.

Posted by Elennainie
I would greatly appreciate any thoughts on what I've said.

this sounds good to me...

Originally posted by Elennainie
The immateriality of the music was well suited to, and corresponded to, the immateriality of the world that, at that moment, only existed in thought.

 

[Eol]

2.Is the universe predefined?

No, even though Illuvatar is God over all other beings, he still gave them the right to choose evil or good, which is another reason Melkor fell to evil and it is also why not even Illuvatar can predict what will happen in the universe. Unless you mean the general shape of the universe, not the peoples within it. Then it could possibly be predefined, but I believe that the Ainur chose their own theme to correspond with that of Illuvatar. Sort of like blending tenor, soprano and bass voices in a choir. They are all different, but they all go together to produce one voice (or in this case, one universe).

Then the voices of the Ainur, like unto harps and lutes, and pipes and trumpets, and viols and organs, and like unto countless choirs singing with words....and a sound arose of endless interchanging melodies woven in harmony

 

[Lhunithiliel]

Although this part of the Reading-discussion is almost at end, I would like to put forward a question that I had asked some time ago but unfortunately it stayed unanswered.
While making the music, did the Ainur actually know that they were creating a material world?
I'm asking this, because I have the impression that they did NOT.
But,
If they knew that they were creating a world, would they have been ..."more careful" or would they have put some "special" features into the music?

 

[Ithrynluin]

Lhun,
of what should they have been more careful exactly?
Did THEY do something wrong or was it Melko?

 

[Elennainie]

Well, we know that Iluvatar did not specifically tell them that the purpose of the Great Singing was to creat a material world. However, he does mention that

I will sit and hearken, and be glad that through you great beauty has been wakened into song.

Was he only talking only about the beauty of the song here, or the beauty of the world which would be created?

I think, also, that we know that the Ainur did not know fully understand the mind of Iluvatar. "For

"For each comprehended only that part of the mind of Iluvatar from which he came..."

So they could not have read his thoughts concerning the coming of the material world.

 

[Confusticated]

I got the impression that the Ainur's existance was confined to eachother, the music, and Iluvatar. For that reason I do not think they could have known that they were making a material world because they didn't know what material was. It is stated that during the vision shown to them by Iluvatar that there was now vision were before there was only hearing. I think the only of our 5 senses that they had experienced was hearing so there is no way they could understand materiel.

Correct me if I'm wrong..

Was he only talking only about the beauty of the song here, or the beauty of the world which would be created?

The way I see it he was certainly talking about the music. Not the world.

 

[Lhunithiliel]

Originally posted by ithrynluin
Lhun,
of what should they have been more careful exactly?
Did THEY do something wrong or was it Melko?

It's not a question of "wrong or right", you know... I just wondered if they would sort of "refine" even more their music knowing that by this the world they were creating would become their own dwelling and that of the Children?
But to me it was more important to see that some of you, just like me, think that they actually did NOT know what their music was meant for.

 

[Maedhros]

I just found this reference by accident, but I thought that it contributed to the discussion:

The Celts of old believed that the world was upheld and sustained
by a single all-embracing melody: Oran Môr, they called it, the Great
Music, and all creation was part of it. perhaps this is why Celtic
music possesses the power to move us in unexpected ways - it touches
that place deep in our hearts where legends still live, and we hear
again the strains of the Ancient Song. (Stephen R. Lawhead, 1996)

Music at it's finest.

 

[Maedhros]

Ainulindalë and Greek Mythology I

From Classical Gods and Heroes: Myths as Told by the Ancient Authors:

Before the sea and lands and the sky that covers everything existed, the appearance of nature in the entire universe was the same. This has been called Chaos, an unformed mass without order, and it was not anything except an inactive weight and the inharmonious seed of things gathered in one place and loosely joined together. Up to that time, there was no Titan [the sun] spreading light over the world, and Phoebe [the moon] did not rise with new crescent horns, nor did the earth hang balanced by its own weight in the air flowing around it, nor had Amphitrite [the sea] strechted out her arms along the long borders of the land.
And although there was in existence not only land but sea and air, nevertheless the land was not firm, the water could not be swum in, the air lacked light. Nothing kept its proper shape.
One of the gods, or a quiet kindly nature, broke up this disorder, for he separated the lands from the sky and the seas from the lands and divided the clear sky from the dense air. After he had freed them and had removed them from the blind mass, he bound each element he had separated in its proper place in harmonious peace.

As Told in Latin verse by Ovid
One of the mayor diferences that I see with Ovid's version and the Ainulindalë, is that while Chaos was an uniformed mass that "existed", while in the Ainulindalë there was only the Void.
We have too, a being (God/Ilúvatar) that molds/creates the world. In Ovid's version it was an unnamed god, who molded the earth, while in the Ainulindalë, it was Ilúvatar that by his Ainur he created Arda.
P.S. It is noticeable that in Hesiod's version, the events occurred in an entirely different fashion.

 

[Lhunithiliel]

One of the gods, or a quiet kindly nature, broke up this disorder, for he separated the lands from the sky and the seas from the lands and divided the clear sky from the dense air

Of course the similarity is great as far as the creation of the "known" world is concerned.
But look at the highlighted section - in thisI find quite a difference, for Tolkien's Eru was far from being a quiet kindly nature.Besides, here we find evidence that the world has one creator only, while in Tolkien mythology Eru first created his "designers" who helped him in the implementation of the grand project.

As for music being the creating force, I have learned that Tolkien mythology is based on the ancient folklore of the British Isles, Scandinavian region and the peoples of the West-Northern part of Europe.
I was thinking, therefore......... if Christianity had appeared in this reagion of the world, then the process of creation, as known in the Christian religion, would too be based on the same idea - music.

 

[Aiwendil2]

P.S. It is noticeable that in Hesiod's version, the events occurred in an entirely different fashion.

I think most everything that's in the Metamorphoses must be taken with a grain of salt. Ovid had a tendency toward the comedic, and felt free to play around with the original stories (and some of it is quite funny in the Latin).