The Silmarillion:Ainulindalë

[Elu Thingol]

Posted by Maedhros
It was the action of Melkor that caused the discord in the music, that prompted Ilúvatar to make other themes (and in the third theme of Ilúvatar alone), the Children were made, so Melkor unknowingly was indirectly responsible for the third theme of Ilúvatar and therefore the Children of Ilúvatar.

On this point I completely disagree with you. Melkor's discord did not cause Ilúvatar to make other themes.

"And then they saw with amazement the coming of the Children of Iluvatar, and the habitation that was prepared for them; and they perceived that they themselves in the labour of their music had been busy with the preparation of this dwelling, and yet knew not that it had any purpose beyond its own beauty."

I will paraphrase the bold section for you as it is apparent to me that you need it. The Ainur realized that they were so busy with the music and creating Arda that they did not realize that the purpose of the music was to create a world for the Children of Ilúvatar.

Ilúvatar proposed the first themes so they could create a world, Arda. And as is clearly shown in this quote, Arda had the purpose all along of holding the Children of Ilúvatar. Now, Melkor's discord may have forced Ilúvatar to play his theme earlier than he had expected; however, it did not force him to create his theme.

 

[Maedhros]

"And then they saw with amazement the coming of the Children of Iluvatar, and the habitation that was prepared for them; and they perceived that they themselves in the labour of their music had been busy with the preparation of this dwelling, and yet knew not that it had any purpose beyond its own beauty."

Know, hmmmmm, this is an interesting concept. Ilúvatar only gave the Ainur certain parts of knowledge regarding his theme, no one had all the knowledge except Eru himself. The Ainur didn't know of the Children of Ilúvatar.

Then Ilúvatar spoke, and he said: 'Mighty are the Ainur, and mightiest among them is Melkor; but that he may know, and all the Ainur, that I am Ilúvatar, those things that ye have sung, I will show them forth, that ye may see what ye have done. And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined.'

I will paraphrase the bold section for you as it is apparent to me that you need it.
I would categorize the Children of Ilúvatar a thing more wonderful that Melkor had imagined.
Melkor without having any knowledge of the Children, tried to interweave into the music his ideas, creating discord and prompting Ilúvatar directly to introduce his themes and in the third one, the Children were created. I would guess that if Melkor had not entered his discord into the music, the Children would have been brought in a different way.
Yet, in this scenario, it was because of the discord of the Music of Melkor, that Ilúvatar intervened and in his third theme, the Children were created and his words were proven to be true.

 

[Lhunithiliel]

To say that the creation of the Children came as a response to Melkor's discord is something that I can not agree with.
I will NOT provide quotes, for Maedhros and Elu are doing fine with this job.
But, Maedhros, if your theory is right, if Melkor provoked the creation of the Children.... Then....
1/ WHY in the third theme? Why not in the first or in the second? They all were provoked by Melkor's discord.
2/ And another thing, as a derivative from the above question - If Illuvatar was creating the most beloved creation of his - his Children - Why had he to do it in anger? Remember that anger was the prevailing tune in the third theme! His face and the music (as described) shows it.
--------------------------

Edit: Are only the initial questions to be answered?

 

[Elu Thingol]

Posted by Maehdros
I would guess that if Melkor had not entered his discord into the music, the Children would have been brought in a different way.

If by a different way you mean that Melkor's discord would not be present I agree. However, Ilúvatar's theme would not be changed and his theme was not a response to Melkor's discord. Our main disagreement is this statment-this is my argument-Melkor's actions did not cause Ilúvatar to create the third theme. It was already created.

Posted by Maehdros
Melkor had to do with the Creation of the Children of Ilúvatar in the fact that by his discords in the music, Ilúvatar to counter him made the third theme in which the Children of Ilúvatar came into being.

My whole emphasis is this, that the Children of Ilúvatar were not made to be a counter, as the passage above states.

 

[Confusticated]

Lhunithiliel, we can ask and answer any questions that we'd like,not just those in Maedhros' initial post. He said so in the commentary thread.
Though no one has answered my last question yet...(hint).

Here's another...

...to none but himself has Ilúvatar revealed all that he has in store, and in every age there come forth things that are new and have no foretelling, for they do not proceed from the past.

What might some of these things be?

 

[gate7ole]

Despite being very interesting, the debate between Maedhros and Elu Thingol has confined the conversation in one only subject. I sense that everything needed has been said and other matters should be also discussed.
Confusticated’s quote simply states the obvious. Since the future cannot be fully determined, every age has its surprises even to the Valar. The vision by no means was a thorough account of the events to come. And considering the free will of the Children of Iluvatar that change the course of history by their actions, a different argument would be erroneous. Concentrating on the quote
“for they do not proceed from the past”
we can further make out that the past cannot hinder the course of the future. It is a hopeful statement as it gives the opportunity to a group of people can to get over the mistakes of the past and start a new life. Of course it also implies that since some events are new to the age even to the Valar, Iluvatar’s intervention in Arda is continuous and through Manwe, he never ceases to help his creations to overcome all difficulties.

 

[Confusticated]

Originally posted by gate7ole

Confusticated’s quote simply states the obvious. Since the future cannot be fully determined, every age has its surprises even to the Valar. The vision by no means was a thorough account of the events to come. And considering the free will of the Children of Iluvatar that change the course of history by their actions, a different argument would be erroneous. Concentrating on the quote
“for they do not proceed from the past”
we can further make out that the past cannot hinder the course of the future...

Well ,either you missed my question or chose not to answer it. I did not ask for the meaning of that quote but for some examples of what it speaks of.

 

[gate7ole]

Originally posted by Confusticated
Well ,either you missed my question or chose not to answer it. I did not ask for the meaning of that quote but for some examples of what it speaks of.

I don't know which things the Valar saw in the vision and which they didn't. I suppose that they saw the most events of the First Age, but I have a feeling that they didn't foreknow the downfall of Numenor. So, this can be something that surprised Valar, despite being bad (the quote doesn't discriminate between good or bad). Also, the Valar might not have seen the destruction of the Ruling Ring by a Hobbit. Or the treason of Saruman, or the intervention of the Ents. But all these are speculations.

 

[Aiwendil2]

1/ WHY in the third theme? Why not in the first or in the second? They all were provoked by Melkor's discord.

Certainly this is a valid question in either case - whether the Children were a response to the discord or not. It is explicitly stated that the Children came with the third theme - that much is incontravertible. The question is not with which theme they entered; it is whether the third theme was purely a response to Melkor's discord, or whether it would have been introduced regardless of Melkor's actions. One might suspect that, if Iluvatar had intended to create the Children from the beginning, he would have included them in the first theme. That he did not do so, and that the narrative certainly makes it appear that the third theme was a response to Melkor, at least raises the possibility that the Children of Iluvatar were conceived of as an instrument through which to counter Melkor's evil.

2/ And another thing, as a derivative from the above question - If Illuvatar was creating the most beloved creation of his - his Children - Why had he to do it in anger? Remember that anger was the prevailing tune in the third theme! His face and the music (as described) shows it.

Again, it is a fact that the Children came with the third theme. Even if they would have been created without the discord, we still must live with the fact that the theme that introduced them was, apparently, made in anger.

Our main disagreement is this statment-this is my argument-Melkor's actions did not cause Ilúvatar to create the third theme. It was already created.

I don't think there's enough textual evidence to either confirm or refute this. Even if you are correct however, it seems to me that the Children of Iluvatar were in the event introduced to counter Melkor's discord. They may have been conceived of prior to this, but their actual appearance is a response to Melkor.

Here's another...

quote:
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...to none but himself has Ilúvatar revealed all that he has in store, and in every age there come forth things that are new and have no foretelling, for they do not proceed from the past.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


What might some of these things be?

I suspect that this includes such things as making the world round and sending Gandalf back. I'm not sure though, whether there's a subtle distinction between things that Iluvatar "had in store" from the beginning but did not reveal and things that he conceived of after the world was made. Interesting question.

 

[Elu Thingol]

Posted by Aiwendil2
the narrative certainly makes it appear that the third theme was a response to Melkor, at least raises the possibility that the Children of Iluvatar were conceived of as an instrument through which to counter Melkor's evil.

Nay, that line of logic is faulty. Let me give things to you in laymen's terms. Now when Iluvatar first suggested to the Ainur a mighty theme he knew what would be created, Arda. The whole point is that Arda was made for the Children of Iluvatar. So Iluvatar is not going to suggest a world with no point. You may say that the point of Arda was simply its beauty; however that is impossible due to the following quote

"...and yet knew not that it had any purpose beyond its own beauty."

Paraphrase: So it had a purpose beyond its own beauty
Note: that this is past tense, meaning it had purpose in the past not in the present

Next, when Melkor started his discord I'm sure Iluvatar did not say to himself "hmmm... I think I'll create my children to stop him"

Posted by Aiwendile2
we still must live with the fact that the theme that introduced them was, apparently, made in anger.

where does it say the children were made in anger?

Only before he makes his last note does it say that his face was terrible to behold. Even if Iluvatar is angry while he is playing the third theme this is probably because Melkor is trying to mess everything up.

Verstehst du?

 

[Aiwendil2]

Nay, that line of logic is faulty. Let me give things to you in laymen's terms. Now when Iluvatar first suggested to the Ainur a mighty theme he knew what would be created, Arda. The whole point is that Arda was made for the Children of Iluvatar. So Iluvatar is not going to suggest a world with no point.

You are arguing against the idea that the Children of Iluvatar were solely conceived of as a response to Melkor's discord. This is not the position I was maintaining. My point is that, regardless of whether Iluvatar's intention to create them had existed earlier, they were in the event employed against Melkor's discord. The Children were contained in the third theme, and the third theme wages war against Melkor's theme. That's all that I'm saying.

I think you're right about Arda being intended from the beginning for the Children of Iluvatar.

where does it say the children were made in anger?

It does not. That's why I said "apparently" made in anger. Iluvatar's face is "stern" when he introduces the third theme. I think that's interesting.

 

[Elu Thingol]

Posted by Aiwendil2
That he did not do so, and that the narrative certainly makes it appear that the third theme was a response to Melkor, at least raises the possibility that the Children of Iluvatar were conceived of as an instrument through which to counter Melkor's evil.

Sounds like you were defending that to me.

Where is Maehdros? He hasn't posted in this thread at all today.

 

[Confusticated]

The children could not have been introduced during the first or second theme because Arda was not enough formed.
I say that it was Iluvatar's plan that Arda be marred for the children. So I say that the discord of Melkor was just a preparation for the children as was the more pleasant work done by the other Valar.
I think that once the theme reached that magic point already forseen by Iluvatar, he introduced the children..so it was in response to a point reached by Melkor and the other Valar.

 

[Maedhros]

However, Ilúvatar's theme would not be changed and his theme was not a response to Melkor's discord.

My point is that, regardless of whether Iluvatar's intention to create them had existed earlier, they were in the event employed against Melkor's discord. The Children were contained in the third theme, and the third theme wages war against Melkor's theme.

It's there in the book.

the Ainur saw that it contained things which they had not thought. And they saw with amazement the coming of the Children of Ilúvatar, and the habitation that was prepared for them; and they perceived that they themselves in the labour of their music had been busy with the preparation of this dwelling, and yet knew not that it had any purpose beyond its own beauty. For the Children of Ilúvatar were conceived by him alone; and they came with the third theme, and were not in the theme which Ilúvatar propounded at the beginning, and none of the Ainur had part in their making.

Melkor didn't knew of the Children of Ilúvatar, yet the theme in which they were formed was made by Ilúvatar to counter his discord. Regardless of what might have happened if there were no discord, the fact of the matter is that by it, Ilúvatar to counter it, made the third theme that created the Children of Ilúvatar. Perhaps Ilúvatar wanted it that way, perhaps not. I cannot put it more simple than that.
This is in accord with this too:

And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined.'

Where is Maehdros? He hasn't posted in this thread at all today.

Busy in work.

 

[Elu Thingol]

I think I can see where your going wrong Maedhros

You think that if Melkor hadn't created discord, that the children would be created in some other way. That's just not possible they would still have to be created by a theme and it would be the same exact theme Ilúvatar played in the third theme. You seriously don't think he can just change his part in the music and get the same results do you? Melkor's discord did not cause Ilúvatar to change his music in the third theme. He had already devised it there was no room for changes.

 

[Aiwendil2]

Sounds like you were defending that to me.

I was defending the question, not the answer. I think it's easy to see how one could interpret the passage as indicating that the Children of Iluvatar were made as a response to Melkor. There's other evidence (which you've cited) that points the other way. I agree with you that that evidence is more persuasive.

 

[Maedhros]

You think that if Melkor hadn't created discord, that the children would be created in some other way. That's just not possible they would still have to be created by a theme and it would be the same exact theme Ilúvatar played in the third theme. You seriously don't think he can just change his part in the music and get the same results do you?

They would have been created by a theme, yes. All that was created (previous things in the Ainulindalë) was by a theme. Since Ilúvatar is God, he can pretty much do what he wants and yes I think that he can make a different theme and still get the Children of Ilúvatar. They could have been created in another way if Melkor hadn't made the discord.
A God by definition has no limitations, if he had, he wouldn't be a God, would he?

 

[Elu Thingol]

Yes, a God has no limitations, however, they can set limitations for themselves. By creating Arda and the children through themes Iluvatar is setting a limitation, if he had none he could just think of Arda and it would exist. So the theme would also have limitations, you can't change it and get the same result. 1+1=45 what? impossible

 

[Maedhros]

By creating Arda and the children through themes Iluvatar is setting a limitation, if he had none he could just think of Arda and it would exist.

He could do that, just that he did it in another way.

That's just not possible they would still have to be created by a theme and it would be the same exact theme Ilúvatar played in the third theme.

Why the exact same theme, doesn't makes sense. How can you limit and omnipotent being to a single alternative?

Now granted Melkor's theme caused the children to come out different than they should have

There is only "one third theme", not alternates. His third theme was waging aginst that of the discord of Melkor. If as you say, Melkor was not indirectly responsible for the Children, how is it possible that he alter their coming? If he had nothing to do with them, then how did he change the outcome?

you can't change it and get the same result.

You can't change the theme and have it have the same result, yet you say that Melkor's discord caused the Children to come out different. Different from what? There is only one theme.

 

[Elu Thingol]

Now granted Melkor's theme caused the children to come out different than they should have

Posted by Maedhros
caused the Children to come out different. Different from what?

They wouldn't come out different who knows what I was thinking

"...though it has been said that greater still shall be made before Iluvatar by the choirs of the Ainur and the Children of Iluvatar after the end of days. Then the themes of Iluvatar shall be played aright, and take being at the moment of their utterance...."

You can see where I probably went wrong from there, I thought it was refering to something else. Oh well, now on to the real point.

Next

Posted by Maedhros
Since Ilúvatar is God, he can pretty much do what he wants and yes I think that he can make a different theme and still get the Children of Ilúvatar

Even if, Iluvatar could create a different theme that would create the Children, why would he do it? What would be the point of creating a different theme?