The Silmarillion: Valaquenta

Well, and I am going to be a late straggler into the conversation as well.

First of all, to start with the topic being dicussed, I do not believe that the sense of sight was created only after the vision of Illuvatar was fulfilled. Yes, the Valar did not have physical forms, but does this mean that they could not see? I would say that they were, in their original forms, more on a spiritual level then physical level. They could see each other and the spiritual sides of life, but the Elves and mortals of ME could not see them as they did not have the gift of being able to see in the spiritual realm. Thus, Illuvatar could be considered to be in form spiritual but not physical, as could the halls of Eru.

Perhaps, it gave pity and hope to both Elves and Men. Perhaps she saw that hope and was needed to help the Children of Ilúvatar. (Ex. War of Wrath.)

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I want to add my thoughts and interpretations on this: I have never thought of the mourning of Nienna as actually adding a never-before-seen sense into existence, or into ME for that matter. I have simply thought of her mourning during the music to be an echo of the mourning of the Children of Illuvatar and the Valar caused by the destruction and hate of Melkor. I have always pictured her to be the one who sang that part of the suffering of the Children of Iluvatar and the Valar.

So didn't Iluvatar say that you could go to Arda or you could stay and that would be your fate? So if he didn't go at the beginning which I don't think it specifically said he did how did he get there? Was it a special exception by Iluvatar to allow him to enter Arda later than the others because Iluvatar realized the Valar needed help with the war on Melkor?

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Actually, it was only on the Valar who entered ME that Iluvatar placed any sort of restriction. The Ainur outside of Iluvatar were not bound to the Void - they could enter Ea if they wished.

Thus it came to pass that of the Ainur some abode still with Iluvatar beyond the confines of the World; but others, and among them many of the greatest and most fair, took the leave of Iluvatar and descended into it. But this condition Iluvatar made, or it is the necessity of their love, that their power should thenceforward be contained and bounded in the World, to be within it for ever, until it is complete, so that they are its life and it is theirs. And therefore they are named the Valar, the Powers of the World.

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Silmarillion - Valaquenta

With Manwë dwells Varda, Lady of the Stars, who knows all the regions of Eä. ....... Out of the deeps of Eä she came to the aid of Manwë

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Where from? What do you think? And doesn't it hint that at entering Ea, the Ainur did this NOT in a group... Where, do you think, Varda had been before joining Manwe?

...for Melkor she knew from before the making of the Music and rejected him, and he hated her, and feared her more than all others whom Eru made.

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How do you understand this? Jelousy?

When Manwë there ascends his throne and looks forth, if Varda is beside him, he sees further than all other eyes, through mist, and through darkness, and over the leagues of the sea. And if Manwë is with her, Varda hears more clearly than all other ears the sound of voices that cry from east to west, from the hills and the valleys, and from the dark places that Melkor has made upon Earth.

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How do you understand these relations? It seems Varda and Manwe as if complement each other's powers.

I've always just figured that Manwe sees more because of Varda's light, though I could be wrong.
Also that she hears more because of the Manwe's lordship over the wind from which tidings are brought.


I think Melkor probably ended up hating her because he couldn't have her, but I think he feared her because of her light once he became so dark.

In the Lost Road and in Morgoth’s Ring we read:

The chieftains of the Valar were nine. These were the names of the Nine Gods in the elvish tongue as it was spoken in Valinor; Manwe, Melkor, Ulmo, Aule, Mandos, Lorien, Tulkas, Osse, Orome.

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Now, the different from the published Silmarillion (except the removal of Melkor) is that Osse is absent. In fact he has become a Maia.
I find very interesting the degradation of Osse. I can find 4 reasons, why Tolkien might decide to do so:
a) every Vala had his/her distinct filed of expertise. Having two Valar being related to the water might not be coherent.
b) Osse during the early Ages almost rebelled against the Valar, hearing the counsels of Melkor. It might not suite for a Vala to be susceptible to Melkor’s foul advices. All Ainur that finally followed the Dark Lord were lesser spirits (Maiar).
c) all “marriages” are between two Valar. Uinen was not a Vala and her “marriage” with Osse conflicted with it, which might be unwanted.
d) finally, Tolkien may have wanted the same number of male and female Valar, so he had to reduce the numbers of males to seven, thus rejecting Osse for all the previous reasons.

I don't think that that is a problem Aiwendil. If you look at the Ainulindalë:

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And of these Melkor was the chief, even as he was in the beginning the greatest of the Ainur who took part in the Music. And he feigned, even to himself at first, that he desired to go thither and order all things for the good of the Children of Ilúvatar, controlling the turmoils of the heat and the cold that had come to pass through him.
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In an odd way, he seemed to control both fire and cold. I wonder how.

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Agreed. I did not mean "problem" in the sense of an inconsistency or mistake in the text; I only meant that the fact taht he controls both fire and cold is a problem in the interpretation of Melkor as primarily a fire-deity.

No, what I mean to say is that the hand of Iluvatar could be a metaphor, and would be IF he were immaterial.

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I don't see a convincing argument for Iluvatar (or the Ainur) being immaterial. I agree with you that "Iluvatar's hand" must be metaphorical if it is a metaphor. I suppose the one real piece of evidence for that view is that which you quoted:

Now the Valar took to themselves shape and hue;

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I'm not sure how to deal with this. So maybe there is a good case for immaterialism.

I find very interesting the degradation of Osse.

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I also find this interesting. I think the reasons you provide are all good ones. I'd add, though, that the degradation of Osse seems to be tied to the evolution of the Legendarium from a primitive, pagan-style mythology to a more coherent, well thought-out, superposition of Christian and pagan myth. Osse is not the only Vala to be demoted. There are, if I recall correctly, two war-gods in BoLT (one named Measse, perhaps?) who were later dropped entirely. It is as if the Ainur, in the process of being transformed from Gods to angels, underwent a streamlining process of sorts.

There are, if I recall correctly, two war-gods in BoLT (one named Measse, perhaps?) who were later dropped entirely. It is as if the Ainur, in the process of being transformed from Gods to angels, underwent a streamlining process of sorts.

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Of course, Aiwendil is correct. I believe they were called: Makar and Meássë. While reading The Theft of Melko, you noticed the fact that Makar was the one among those who lived in Valinor that talked in favor of Melko.

How do you understand these relations? It seems Varda and Manwe as if complement each other's powers.

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I don't understand this either, and also only Manwe and Melkor are thought brethren in the eyes of Iluvatar...However I think this may be to prove the point of near-equality of evil and good. Obviously if they are brothers they share some of the same traits. Could Osse and Ulmo be another pairing but not in the same sense because instead of a spouse Ulmo has Osse to aid him and his mistress Uinen. Another interesting thing is that Osse and Uinen are the only of the few Valar listed that are spouses, and they compliment each other, as do Varda and Manwe.

His spouse is Uinen, The Lady of the Seas, whose hair lies spread through all water under the sky...For she can lay calm upon the waves restraining the wildness of Osse.

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My theory is that only Valar or Maiar which need additional help (or restraint in Osse's case) are given spouses with additional power for them. Manwe is the appointed ruler of the Valar and he oversees the events in Arda, thus extra sight is granted to him by Varda. Osse has in the past almost joined with Melkor so extra caution is needed on his part.

Any thoughts?

I think they are mated based on function, but that they do love eachother though it is because of some connection they share in fuction.
I am PROBABLY WRONG though.

While reading through HoME, V.III., "THE COMING OF THE VALAR
AND THE BUILDING OF VALINOR", I came accros a few VERY INTERESTING issues:
1/

Those twain (Manwe and Varda) gathered now wings of power to themselves and fared swiftly through the three airs. Vaitya is that which is wrapped dark and sluggish about the world and without it, but Ilwe is blue and clear and flows among the stars, and last came they to Vilna that is grey and therein may the birds fly safely.

....Yet even when all these had crossed the confines of the world and Vilna was in uproar with their passing

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So, there comes a question: What could have been the material shape /form of the Ainur at descending into Arda. Becuase only huge material pieces can cause the effect described. AND, isn't there a slight difference in the understanding of the original form of the Ainur? Once they are described as SPIRITS and here we have a hint that in fact they might have had SOLID MATERIAL BODIES.
What do you think of that?

2/In the same chapter of HoME one can find a lot and a detailed description of the "High" Ainur and their hosts of lesser beings (called spirits) that accompanied them. I was tempted to quote large extracts from the text but then decided to provide it more in a scheme-like manner. So there it goes IN THE ORDER OF THEIR DESCENDING :

==> MELKOR - alone
==> MANWE <> VARDA + "Manir and the Suruli, the sylphs of the airs and of the winds."
==> ULMO - alone
==> AULE + his wife Yavanna PALURIEN + a great host of "the sprites of trees
and woods, of dale and forest and mountain-side, or those that sing amid the grass at morning and chant among the standing corn at eve."
==>FALMAN-OSSE + Onen his consort + "the troops of the Oarni and Falmarini and the long-tressed Wingildi, and these are the spirits of the foam and the surf of ocean."
Important about Osse:

Osse was a vassal and subordinate to Ulmo, and was so for fear and reverence and not for love.

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==> TULKAS POLDOREA
==> LORIEN and MANDOS (brothers) + their TARI - "they are ladies of great worship, queens of the Valar." >> NIENNA - spose of Mandos !!!!

Many other names has she that are spoken seldom and all are grievous, for she is Nuri who sighs and Heskil who breedeth winter, and all must bow before her as Qalme-Tari the mistress of death.

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==> OROME- the Hunter + his spouse VANA- Tuilere or as the Valar said Vana Tuivana who bringeth spring, and all sing her praises as Tari-Laisi mistress of life

The new (in comparison with the Silmarillion, Valaquenta):
==> MAKAR + his "fierce sister MEASSE

As for the following I could NOT understand WHO exactly this Ainur was:

Last of all came Omar who is called Amillo, youngest of
the great Valar, and he sang songs as he came.

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First of all HE was the last, not Tulkas and second... Who is he?

Vilna was in uproar with their passing

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This also caused me to question if they were material. I ended up deciding that this doesn't prove that they were, but is the best indication I know of that they might have been. Now, as for their forms, I couldn't even know where to begin to imagine what they might have been.

As for your other question I can not answer, because I've only read the first couple pages of The Coming of the Valar and Building of Valinor. It differs so much from what we have in The Silmarillion that I wasn't ready to deal with it yet!

I see the each Vala as being a part of the whole that is the Valar. They really do work together as one. Though they are many beings, and take on individual shapes, I truely view them as a system that is ultimately one. Even Melkor, who I see as the dark side to the Valar, had a part to play, and him being cast from the order of Valar I think is something like a human denying the any dark parts of themself to have any say in things. While we can not destroy the dark side of our nature we can choose to hide it away, not let it have any say.
But that this darkness does exist and has played it's part in things, it does effect the parts that aren't dedicated to "evil".
And In my opinion such darkness exists as a result of the rest of the system.
I just compare the system of the Valar with a human to explain my thoughts better.

Nice contemplations Nym

I trully wish someone would comment and/or provide some information and/or opinion on the questions/"mini-topics" I put forward in my last TWO posts

Well, I can't really comment on the last part as I haven't read HOME. I was listening, though.

I will say, however, that I believe the Valar descended into Ea in a spirit form.

Now the Valar took to themselves shape and hue; and because they were drawn into the World by love of the Children of Iluvatar, for whom they hoped, they took shape after that manner which they had beheld in the Vision of Iluvatar, save only in majesty and splendour. The Sil.

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The "spirit" form is their natural form - how Iluvatar made them. However, they are able to take physical form whenever they wish or are able to abandon that form and walk "unclad".

Regarding you second point, Lhunithiliel, I think that it must always be borne in mind that the "Book of Lost Tales" is in many ways, both superficially and profoundly, irreconcilable with the published/canon/late Silmarillion. One way in which it differed greatly was that the Valar were depicted in much more primitive and "pagan" terms. This explains, I think, the existence of several ill-defined, minor Valar such as Makar, Measse, and Omar. Omar appears to be strongly associated with song; he is often described as singing. One might conjecture that Tolkien dropped him as he infringed somewhat upon Ulmo's and Osse's song/sea associations.

I also don't think that the phrase "Vilna was in uproar with their passing" can be expected to make sense physically or metaphysically in terms of the later version. The physical/metaphysical/theological system of the Lost Tales is much less well worked out than it became in the 1950s (much in the way that pagan mythologies tend to have poorly worked out and often self-contradictory theologies, whereas modern religions such as Christianity and Judaism have very consistent and sophisticated ones). In short, I don't think that that phrase from the Lost Tales implies that the Valar must have had massive physical bodies. Of course, the Valar could incarnate themselves and disincarnate themselves freely (except for post-Darkening of Valinor Morgoth).

Of Omar:

The ancient door-ward, Speaking to Eriol

...I felt as Omar the Vala who knows all tongues...

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From the Commentary: The Music Of The Ainur

Omar the Vala 'who knows all tongues' did not survive the Lost Tales; a little more is heard of him subsequently, but he is a divinity without much substance.

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The Coming Of The Valar...

There sang Amillo joyously to his playing (referring to Salmar) Amillo who is named Omar, whos voice is the best of all voices, who knoweth all songs in all speeches...

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According to the commentary on The Coming Of The Valar, Omar is actually Salmar's brother. He apparently is the god of music maybe, or languages. Anyway, he disappeared after Lost Tales.

Thank you very much Celebrien and Aiwendil2 for the information that you were so kind to provide!

Concerning Omar - the Vala who knows all tongues, I find it quite an interesting character and it's a pity that the Professor has abandoned the idea of developing him more.
I wonder, however, could it be that he abandoned Omar because if he existed in the final version (the Silm.) it probably would have been necessary to "create" races with different tounges right from the beginning..... Otherwise, what "job" would Omar have had? And in fact, at that time there were only the Valar! Perhaps Omar should have been the one who invented the Common language .....
Really, is anywhere explained how the Common language in ME appeared?
Sorry! This last question was not too much Valaquenta-related!

Well, from the Sil. in the Flight of the Noldor we have:

At Mereth Aderthad many counsels were taken in good will, and oaths were sworn of league and friendship; and it is told that at this feast the tongue of the Grey-elves was most spoken even by the Noldor, for they learned swiftly the speech of Beleriand, whereas the Sindar were slow to master the tongue of Valinor.

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So I would say that the language spoken most often in Middle-earth during this age was that of the Grey-elves. Thus the Men of the three houses of the Edain who came into Beleriand probably spoke this same language with a mix of their own. After Morgoth's defeat, the Men who went over to Numenor were probably influenced by both the High-elven speach and the Grey-elven speach, as well as the tongues of Men on the coasts of ME. After the fall of Numenor, I can only guess that the language was now enriched by both the remaining Elves on ME as well as the many Men who lived there.

The tongue of Numenor was Adunaic, which seems to have been influenced by the Eldarin languages, native Edainic languages, and even Dwarven (perhaps through the Edainic tongues). Westron (the Common Speech) was derived mainly from Adunaic after the fall of Numenor.

Meaning that BEFORE the fall of Numenor there was not a Common langugae in ME?

That is correct, as far as I know. Of course, among the Eldar and Edain of Beleriand in the First Age, Sindarin was essentially a common tongue. Its use continued among the Elves that remained in Middle-earth, but the non-Edainic peoples had their own languages.

I think that it must always be borne in mind that the "Book of Lost Tales" is in many ways, both superficially and profoundly, irreconcilable with the published/canon/late Silmarillion. One way in which it differed greatly was that the Valar were depicted in much more primitive and "pagan" terms. This explains, I think, the existence of several ill-defined, minor Valar such as Makar, Meássë, and Omar.

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Just to point some things out about Makar and her sister Meásse. From the Appendix of Bolt 1:

Makar Given in QL ('God of battle') under root MAKA, with mak- 'slay', makil 'sword'. His Gnomish name is Magron or Magorn, with related words mactha- 'slay', macha 'slaughter, battle', magli 'a great sword'. See Meássë.

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Meássë A late hasty entry in QL adds Meássë 'sister of Makar, Amazon with bloody arms' to the root MEHE 'ooze? ', whence mear 'gore'. In GL she is Mechos and Mechothli (mechor 'gore'), and is also called Magrintha 'the red-handed' (magru = macha 'slaughter, battle', magrusaig 'bloodthirsty'). In the Valar name-list she is called Rávë or Ravenni

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It would seem out of context to have two Valar who are War gods. Looking at their word origins, they look kind of bloodthristy, and very unlike Christian - Judeo tradition.